Damn scary - new ambulance probe

[FJRider]

You've missed the point. If they are transmitting their location, then they were in range of a communications network - otherwise they couldn't transmit their location. This was a preventable situation.

NO ... YOU missed mine ...

Read the first line in post #38 ... The Ambo had a (satellite)tracking device. Not a (satellite)communication device fitted...

[Naki Rat]

Yep... same system as the flight following system that the company I used to fly for uses. Done by satellite tracking

I would therefore assume that HQ was monitoring the ambulance's location via satellite, and if the ambulance didn't even have a GPS navigation system there's no way he's going to have a satellite phone (which would have been the only way of contacting the ambulance).

[Urano]

no GPS, no cellphone, no radio,
"There is no cellphone or radio coverage out there," the caller said.

this is actually unbelievable and unforgivable.
ambulance is not a service you can do without a constant communication with base or the site you are aiming at.
if there are areas without radio or mobile coverage (and i could even understand there are) you MUST put a fuckin' antenna at the top of the highest mountain around, or at least equip the ambulances with a sat phone.
no way to do it differently.

"Her husband was also there and the decision to send a single crew is one I agree with."

second point.
there is NO WAY to do a decent ambu service with one person only on that thing.
it's a very old concept.

back in the last 70s initial 80s, the ambulances here were nothing more than a van with a bed and maybe an oxy bottle in it. the concept was: blast faster than you can to the sick person and take him to the hospital burning the tyres on the tarmac...
in that conditions you could even have the driver only on the ambu.
nowadays we've all understood that there's no way to take an infartuated person to a proper structure in time to save his life. you have to take the HOSPITAL to the site of the sick person. you have to go there, stabilize him and only AFTER take him to the hospital. there are several cases in which you stay on the site workin on the patient MORE than the time you'd need to take him to the hospital, but this is the right way.
you have to equip the ambu with resuscitator, immobilization devices, monitoring devices, a selection of first aid drugs (i've done a lot of narcan injection in the neck of overdosed person: they'd be surely dead if you'd have had to take them to the hospital...).
how can you drive all this stuff if the only person on the car is busy driving the ambu?
the minimum ambulance crew HAVE TO be three persons. one drives, two on the back with the injured person. TWO is not enough: you'd have difficulties to make a proper RCP all alone if conditions are just less than perfect, try to imagine to be alone, in the back of a van with someone that you have to keep on this world takin him by his hair, maybe losing blood, maybe vomiting and you don't know why, maybe his sick (aids or hepatitis) and you have to be aware to be safe for your self, all this flashing at 120 kmh to the hospital...
impossible to give a decent service.

one person crew is simply not acceptable.



EDIT:
i've found the web page of a volunteer association in mountains near modena.
http://www.avapmontecreto.org/Automezzi.htm
there are pictures of a modern ambu and an old one...

[Urano]

I would therefore assume that HQ was monitoring the ambulance's location via satellite, and if the ambulance didn't even have a GPS navigation system there's no way he's going to have a satellite phone (which would have been the only way of contacting the ambulance).

the only place where i had problems with an inmarsat or an iridium phone was when we were volunteering in albany during the balkan war.
but the reason was that americans were jamming the signal cause of the bombing...

can't at all believe someone could have problems with a sat phone in NZ

[Ixion]

I am very surprised that ambulances do not have GPS units. I'd sort of assumed it as a given. This is after all the 22nd century, we must all move with the times, and GPS are cheap as chips now.

Is that policy (no GPS) universal across the country?

[nadroj]

Bob and Annie live on the top of the Tahora saddle, so radio reception would have been possible if he had found them. I am also sure they would have given the "Kaeito Cafe" as a location as it is well signposted. They would have been hoping for the chopper, as it is a slow windy road especially for anyone in pain, and there is a helicopter landing pad at their property (Tom Cruise has been there several times).
I stand by my previous statement: The criminal action is that of management, sending an ambo into a rural area without ensuring they had training on the Rapid or Fontera numbering systems.

[Pussy]

I would therefore assume that HQ was monitoring the ambulance's location via satellite, and if the ambulance didn't even have a GPS navigation system there's no way he's going to have a satellite phone (which would have been the only way of contacting the ambulance).

Nup... I had a satellite flight following system in the Fletcher. The unit itself transmits. Nothing at all to do with the communication system

[BoristheBiter]

I want to know why the husband diddn't just drive her to hospital?
It would have been quicker in the first place.
It was only a cat 3 call.
why was someone not at the gate to meet the ambo?
And this doesn't just happen it the sticks, it happens all over town as well.

I have all the time in the world for our emergancy service's but all you have to do is watch the shows on tv to see what resoruces they have at there disposal.
All you bagging the driver need to get off your soap box and direct it at the DHB. Have you never been lost? have you never had to try and find somewhere you had no knowledge of. do you know all the street names and where they go in your area.
Yep sat phones would be good and should be in all units but there not, why? because money is deemed to be better spent somewhere else.

We all went on a ride to wellywood to voice our disapproval on the rego going up but sit back and take it when our services are crap.
WHY?

[FJRider]

The criminal action is that of management, sending an ambo into a rural area without ensuring they had training on the Rapid or Fontera numbering systems.

The Rapid numbering system was introduced to stop this very thing happening ... wasn't it ... ???

Yet one branch of the emergency services is not training their staff to use it. I would have thought that would have been the very first part of driver training ... how to find your patient. They can't help them if they can't find them ...

Total reliance on cell phone/radio networks is evident ... which I hope the driver concerned has learned ... is not always possible.

[BoristheBiter]

The Rapid numbering system was introduced to stop this very thing happening ... wasn't it ... ???

Yet one branch of the emergency services is not training their staff to use it. I would have thought that would have been the very first part of driver training ... how to find your patient. They can't help them if they can't find them ...

Total reliance on cell phone/radio networks is evident ... which I hope the driver concerned has learned ... is not always possible.

How could you fault a metal plate nailed to a tree/post/gate.

[FJRider]

How could you fault a metal plate nailed to a tree/post/gate.

you can't ...

I thought the call centre's priorty question is ... what is your street/rapid number .. ??

[Naki Rat]

the only place where i had problems with an inmarsat or an iridium phone was when we were volunteering in albany during the balkan war.
but the reason was that americans were jamming the signal cause of the bombing...

can't at all believe someone could have problems with a sat phone in NZ

The problem I was alluding to was that the ambulance would not have a very expensive Satphone, seeing as how they didn't even have a GPS unit for their in vehicle navigation. Reception to satellites was obviously available given that HQ was able to monitor the vehicle's progress, but it was only being used to receive the vehicle's GPS sender unit.

Nup... I had a satellite flight following system in the Fletcher. The unit itself transmits. Nothing at all to do with the communication system

Your tracking system was 'communicating' data via satellite but you didn't have the ability to use this comm's link to send voice data (say for example if your radio died), which would have put you in the same situation as the ambulance, but in his case he also lacked a navigation system (other than a road map)

[Naki Rat]

I am very surprised that ambulances do not have GPS units. I'd sort of assumed it as a given. This is after all the 22nd century, we must all move with the times, and GPS are cheap as chips now.

Is that policy (no GPS) universal across the country?

This statement from the newspaper article would indicate that the ambulance service are still very much in the last century in regard to GPS technology:

"Under normal circumstances, GPS is not needed because we are able to contact the drivers," she said.

"If ambulance officers have their own GPS system, they are allowed to use it but it must have a verbal alert.

"We don't want our drivers looking at a screen while they are driving, sometimes at speed, and perhaps worried about a patient."

The only GPS units that don't have verbal alert capabilities now are of the 'cheap and nasty' variety and certainly don't have any place in an emergency vehicle.

Coincidentally it would be interesting to know from one of our police KB members what the prevalence of GPS navigation units is in Police vehicles ??

[ynot slow]

You've got that spot on. The driver was recently from Hawera (south Taranaki) and had no knowledge of the area, never having been there even in daylight. And he didn't have a clue what a rapid number is He was literally driving blind.

Oh FFS,I lived in Hawera for over 40 yrs,still knew most of the Naki roads,certainly knew the main roads,ie.Wiremu,Eltham,South etc.
The RAPID numbers were a godsend to everyone from couriers/truckies to emergency services,when I had to deliver to rural areas,we'd ask what's the dairy company number,if not a cow cocky it was fun,usually got head passed xyz rd,turn left/right then look for blue roof/cream house and we're the 4th on left.The rapid system meant you knew the house was x km away form start of road,also left or right side,if a marker was missing(and easy to miss with vegetation or damage)you kept an eye on numbers close to destination,i.e if rapid no is 340 keep an eye on speedo reading,then around 2.7km you know it is within 1km.

To me first thing any emergency volunteer or professional requires is knowledge of district,and how rural number system works,not knowing the minor roads is not an issue,but knowing how to get there is a priority from main road.

I worked in Stratford for 4 years,there were many eastern naki roads I wasn't familiar with but a look at the map helped prior to doing delivery or installation,think my old boss would've been very pissed had I left for Tahora and ended up in Ohura.

Also maybe a sat phone for any areas in kiwiland where emergency services could be in black out situations for communications.

Think the ambos are great,but human error is always there,be it comms or driver.

When the rescue chopper was being investigated,Allan Beck would drop and go with his chopper,when we got a truly dedicated chopper almost everything from broken leg to stroke,from bruised ankle to heart attack meant chopper was despatched,just to prove funding the chopper was required,seems strange comms decided not to send chopper given back pain and a nice bumpy slow journey to hospital.

[Toot Toot]

Geez it's not like they are run ragged all day while waiting for a call is it? They should get on their bike and go figure out where shit is, instead of having another round of bikkies and tea.

You have NO idea how run ragged the service is do you? This is the singly most offensive post in this entire thread.

Dispatch/comms should have had a system that provides better awareness of the area with maps on display , they should have systems that would give them rough idea of the travel times and be asking the driver/crews part way through the journeys about locations.

Crews need to be confident they can ask comms for information and direction an get the right info.

Comms have a very comprehensive and amazingly accurate mapping system which is always up on one of the multiple screens at their disposal. This (mapping) was not the issue here.
Crews are more than confident to query direction/location.

Naki Rat, that story does not add up. If Ambulance staff in Wellington were able to watch the ambulance drive past the property then it meant the onboard GPS system was able to transmit the co-ordinates back to Wellington.

If it could transmit the co-ordinates, then there was a working comunication system. How do ambulances transmit the co-ordinates? The cell phone network (most common method I know of)?

It seems to me if there was a communications network available, and there obviously was, then this was entirely avoidable.

It is called AVL (Automatic Vehicle Location), a commonly used tool amongst all sorts of industries involving vehicles. It transmits its position via satillite back to the communications room, plotting itself onto the dispatchers mapping system. It has nothing to do with cell phone or radio network coverage.

I am very surprised that ambulances do not have GPS units. I'd sort of assumed it as a given. This is after all the 22nd century, we must all move with the times, and GPS are cheap as chips now.

Is that policy (no GPS) universal across the country?

GPS navigation systems such as Navman are permitted as a navigation aid, so long as it does not distract from the safe operation of the vehicle. They are SOMETIMES purchased for the vehicle by various organisations, or the officers may use there own personal one. It is not standard practice for the company to purchase these items as the budget is not big enough to allow it at this point.

At the end of the day....two errors in nearly two years????? Sounds like a pretty low error rate to me.