Justice?! Schapelle Corby

[StoneChucker]

Not at all, but the French do, and they were the first modern European Republic.

You're assuming that every culture should presuppose innocence.

What I believe is that if you break the law in another country you should suffer the full weight of the sentence. It is not a question of compassion at all. What do you expect the International "community" to do about it? Compel Indonesia and France to release everyone from their penal systems because they're "wrong"?

There's only one way to "compel" a nation and that requires Military force. There's too much oil being produced in Indonesia to ever expect the cooperation of every country with the capability to conquer Indonesia to impose what you perceive to be "right" in this circumstance. You're still not trying view the situation from Indonesia's perspective. You can only apply your values in your own social milieu. You cannot enforce them on a different culture by proxy or invasion.

You've said a bunch of things that were not stated clearly in your original arguments. If you want a discussion fine; I'm not really that thrilled to be responding to a series of ambushes.

This I agree with 100% Much more precise, to my liking
If the trial was fair, I'd leave it at that.

[pete376403]

Was I imagining it, or did anyone else hear on the news that the same judge sentenced a multiple murderer to 10 years because of his "politeness to the court", and lambasted the SC defence team for displaying a "crying competition". The sentence seems to be more about the judges own ego.

[scumdog]

Hmmm, not convinced either way but that 'evidence' that Corby tried to stop her bag being opened? No security video of it and only the easily bought words of two airport staff to back it up - was NOBODY else there to see what REALLY happened?

Why (can somebody explain?) would ANYBODY bother to take weed INTO Indonesia when it is so readily available there and at a cheaper price than in Aussie?i

Bring in Indonesian sentencing with our justice system - now THERES food for thought.

Be a frosty day in hell before I visit Indonesia, always thought that but now confirmed.

[Skyryder]

Not at all, but the French do, and they were the first modern European Republic.

You're assuming that every culture should presuppose innocence.

What I believe is that if you break the law in another country you should suffer the full weight of the sentence. It is not a question of compassion at all. What do you expect the International "community" to do about it? Compel Indonesia and France to release everyone from their penal systems because they're "wrong"?

There's only one way to "compel" a nation and that requires Military force. There's too much oil being produced in Indonesia to ever expect the cooperation of every country with the capability to conquer Indonesia to impose what you perceive to be "right" in this circumstance. You're still not trying view the situation from Indonesia's perspective. You can only apply your values in your own social milieu. You cannot enforce them on a different culture by proxy or invasion.

You've said a bunch of things that were not stated clearly in your original arguments. If you want a discussion fine; I'm not really that thrilled to be responding to a series of ambushes.

No I am not proposeing that every county should have a presumption of innocence. I am stating that a presumption of guilt is more likely to have an innocent defendant found 'guilty' than the presumption of innocence, where guilt must be prooved, as is the case of our judicial system.

I have in no way suggested that Indonesia does not have the right to determine to enact whatever law it sees fit. I do maintain that indaviduals and the international community has the right to protest in a non vilolent way to to disagree and possibably change it. As they/it did(helped) in the case of South African apartheid system.

I have very little sympathy for Miss Corby This from your original post on the subject. And yet in a reply to Big Dave you contradict yourself by stating Big Dave: -She deserves sympathy for the effect it will have on her life, BUT she does not deserve any more sympathy than any other person carrying drugs into that area. Correct me if I am wrong but are your saying that Corby, where there is some doubt about her own knowledge of carryin drugs in her bag deserves, no more sympathty that the Bali 9 who were found with Heroin strapped to their bodies.
Heres another one. It gives me the screaming heebee jeebies to think that sane, sensible people in "western" countries, with a judicial system that at least pays lip service to personal freedom,
Perhaps you could explain how the judicial system has 'infinged' your personal freedom. It is clear that you have very little concern about other people infingments of personal freedom so perhaps you could explain how the judicial system has infringed yours. Now I not saying that it has not but an explanation of your views on this would be intersting.

But here lies the difference between our argument. You stated There is no question of natural justice or fairness to be discussed. She broke the law, wittingly or unwittingly, in a country where the punishment is known to be extreme.


But this is the issue. To suggest otherwise is to miss the point of this ducussion or perhaps not wanting to see it.

It is the severity of the sentance along with the possibility that this may be increased that has so many people upset. Not to mention that the Australian police has uncovered the possibility of airline baggage handler involvment of drug trafficking. Ignorance is not a defence in either system and I have in no way suggested that it is. But when a judge boasts that he has not found one defendant innocent, that presuposses all who appear before him are guilty of the crime that they are accused of. Or that the judge is simply indifferent to an alternative possibility; innocence. I suspect the latter.

And then you go on and state the obvious... Those of you discussing it from the point of view of how terrible the sentence is are doing it from the perspective of your culture and values system.
No intellect in that supposition.

Given the time and effort I could tear all your arguments to pieces. For example you ask if I believe that the International community should compell France and Indonesia to release every one from their penal system because they are wrong. Show me where I susggested this. I have used the word superior to differentiate between our judicial system and that which found Corby guilty. Look up the differences in the dictionary.

As for your accausation that I have ambushed you...............is it my fault that you have been caught off guard. I believe that I have been upfront but I find these accusations from you .........petty to say the least. I am more than willing to take up dialogue with you on any subject that may arise on these forums but please do not interpert my comments in such a way as to denigrat me. You do me a disservice but yourself more so.



Skyryder

[Ixion]

Hmmm, not convinced either way but that 'evidence' that Corby tried to stop her bag being opened? No security video of it and only the easily bought words of two airport staff to back it up - was NOBODY else there to see what REALLY happened?

Why (can somebody explain?) would ANYBODY bother to take weed INTO Indonesia when it is so readily available there and at a cheaper price than in Aussie?i

Bring in Indonesian sentencing with our justice system - now THERES food for thought.

Be a frosty day in hell before I visit Indonesia, always thought that but now confirmed.

Interesting thing is, the times I've been to Indonesia (not Bali admittedly), no-one has displayed the slightest interest in checking my bags. You just collect your luggage, slip the immigration guy his 50000 rupiah, fill in the form that says nothing to declare and walk out. No-ones ever stopped me or even appeared to look at me. Not that they would ever have found anything I must add. But they've always seemed utterly disinterested. Same in Malaysia. (except they have a wierd thing about hats, wanting you to take them off) Aussie is the worst for officious turkeys wanting to check stuff.

[justsomeguy]

Interesting thing is, the times I've been to Indonesia (not Bali admittedly), no-one has displayed the slightest interest in checking my bags. You just collect your luggage, slip the immigration guy his 50000 rupiah, fill in the form that says nothing to declare and walk out. No-ones ever stopped me or even appeared to look at me. Not that they would ever have found anything I must add. But they've always seemed utterly disinterested. Same in Malaysia. (except they have a wierd thing about hats, wanting you to take them off) Aussie is the worst for officious turkeys wanting to check stuff.

You been to India??

[Ixion]

You been to India??

No, never to India. though I've a suspicion that that would involve a LOT of very pedantic border officials. Who probably spend a lot of time consulting rule books. I know quite a few Indians. Give an Indiana rule book and you've given him an occupation for life

[marty]

if you go to the states and lock your bags, the WORSE thing that will happen is the lock gets cut off, or you get searched. if you've nothing to hide, then that's part of travelling. if the lock is cut off, then you have some back up if something is missing/found. tie wraps are the best, lightweight, easy to carry 20 or so, need sharp tools to cut them - bolt cutters won't. maybe it's time the customs areas had an area that people can check their own bags before going into the customs chute? good time to have a last check for any add-ins if the padlock has been tampered with.

[James Deuce]

It's a bike site.

I voiced an opinion. I still stand by it.

I have no desire to present my argument as anything other than an opinion. Hence my comment re. ambushes. I don't come to this site looking for a fact based discussion on comparing elements of cultures. I also could pull your "arguments" to bits, but you are taking a contrary view that could be described as mischeivous at best.

You are not going to change my mind no matter how many times you change direction in your posts, another reason to call your posts ambushes. One minute we appear to be discussing the same thnig. The next you've tacked to another heading.

You've sucked a great deal of joy from this site for me as I feel like I am being held to account for voicing an opinion that the opinion that you seem to subscribe to is nothing more than thinly veiled Post Victorian Imperialism. White Christian Might does still indeed appear to be Right.

Another thing - We were ALL wrong. Indonesia does indeed pre-suppose innocence in its judicial system. I spoke to an Indonesian friend, and the myth that Ms Corby's guilt was pre-supposed was an Australian media construct based on the Indonesian judge referring to the prima facie case against Ms Corby (she was in possesion of a substantial quantity of drugs) as providing a basis to assume she was guilty.

I really do have very little sympathy for Ms Corby. Islamic social norms are completely different to western christian ones. Australia and Indonesia have a very strained relationship. Western travellers behave in ways, especially the way women dress, that give an Islamic culture an excuse to be, at the least, affronted. It is extreme arrogance to think you can bowl into another culture, another country, and then demand that they let you behave in whatever way you want.

[Lou Girardin]

What the hell has her "past" have to do with anything. At last report,she didn't have a "past". Her father and brother had done some petty crime, does that make her guilty?
The real issue is why they didn't fingerprint the bag of dope or video the arrest as they did for the 'Bali nine'. They had plenty of time to do so, they found the dope well before they arrested her.
I, for one, will never visit that corrupt shithole and I'm damn sure there's plenty others who won't too.

BTW. The inquisitorial system of justice does not have a presumption of guilt, that's a little refinement added in Indonesia to increase the revenue to Judges. "As in,you're guilty, but a small sum can change that"

[ManDownUnder]

What the hell has her "past" have to do with anything. At last report,she didn't have a "past". Her father and brother had done some petty crime, does that make her guilty?
The real issue is why they didn't fingerprint the bag of dope or video the arrest as they did for the 'Bali nine'. They had plenty of time to do so, they found the dope well before they arrested her.
I, for one, will never visit that corrupt shithole and I'm damn sure there's plenty others who won't too.

BTW. The inquisitorial system of justice does not have a presumption of guilt, that's a little refinement added in Indonesia to increase the revenue to Judges. "As in,you're guilty, but a small sum can change that"

Yeah I have to admit I'll be reluctant to go through there again.

I do a bit of travel and notice the different systems in airports around the place and it is difficult to maintain security of your nbags. No - actually it's impossible.

When you hand your bags over - they're gone. They are in the care of people and systems unknown until you see them on the arrivals conveyor belt at the next airport.

What get's put in or out of your bag remains unknown - the only thing you can can do is check to see if someone has been in there. Padlocks are an expensive way to do this. They get cut off, they cost money and you have to replace 'em for the next flight (or you don't know who was in your bags... again!)

So as someone mentioned here, I use cable ties. The small ones with the tag on the end (somewhere to write). Get a bag from dick smith or similar.

Lock your bag with it, cut the end off so it isn't nuisance value, and sign the tag. If it's been opened at the other end, it'll be obvious. At that point you can say - it was opened.

If a lot of people in the airports start doing this (and I expect they wil be doing something similar now...) then GOOD. The airlines hold me accountable for my bags, and I'll pass on that blame as needed.

As fr Chapelle Corby - I personally believe she was innocent and silly. Why would anyone take dope into a country that grows it, dropping it's street value from AU$60,000 in Oz, to AU$5,000 in bali? They GROW the stuff there. It's an export crop.

Yes they have drug problems there - the problem is that the supply is too high ('scuse the pun).

What about the cameras at airport check in not working on the day she checked her bags? Where are the x-ray films of her bags as they 1) get checked in and 2) get passed onto an international flight.

MISSING??? what a surprise!

I understand there is more but I'll stop here.

I don;t pretend to know it all in respect of this case. I only know what the media has told me and they have an unfortunate habit of wanting to sell sensational stories... go figure. So I don't even trust my sources.

aaaa enough said.

back to work for me!
MDU

[Ixion]

..

So as someone mentioned here, I use cable ties. The small ones with the tag on the end (somewhere to write). Get a bag from dick smith or similar.

Lock your bag with it, cut the end off so it isn't nuisance value, and sign the tag. If it's been opened at the other end, it'll be obvious. At that point you can say - it was opened.

If a lot of people in the airports start doing this (and I expect they wil be doing something similar now...) then GOOD. The airlines hold me accountable for my bags, and I'll pass on that blame as needed.
..

I can remove cable ties without cutting them. You just need a narrow little pointy thing to slip into the "head" and hold the "tail" away from the "ridge". Then pull hard. When I did this (it was legititmate, don't get ideas) I had a special little gadget I made.

[scumdog]

I can remove cable ties without cutting them. You just need a narrow little pointy thing to slip into the "head" and hold the "tail" away from the "ridge". Then pull hard. When I did this (it was legititmate, don't get ideas) I had a special little gadget I made.

A touch with a soldering iron (or maybe a Bic-Flic?) ensures their integrity.

[Paul in NZ]

Excellent.. This thread is getting into the wonderful world of the sweeping generalisation... Fun ahead chaps, full speed and don't spare the emotions...

In an effort to inflame the situation I have to ask how the average, working class, footy lovin, Bali excursion going, aussie that learnt cultural tolerance by discussing not actually killing the last Aboriginal in the concentration camp at the Wogga Gogga Public bar over a crate of VB would feel about the Indonesian Govt meddling in their justice system.

Imagine if the Chinese govt had got all stroppy about the people buying drivers licenses or kidnapping folks here in NZ? (well they would be upset about private industry getting in on govt business of course)

We would be 'outraged'.....

Our 'colonial' attitudes might just get us into a power of trouble with Indonesia one day. If that happens we might just need to be a bit careful.

Our media portrays the judge as an evil buffoon... The pretty defendant as an angel etc etc. That may not be the case... From what I've seen I could just as easily protray her as a stupid white chick that thinks she can put one over the dumb darkies and her parents as idiots that think thay saying "Aw she'll be comin 'ome soon cobber' will make a difference... Sorry mate you aint in Wogga wogga now... Shit yes she is upset... (hell who wouldn't be) but really the defence has come up with bugger all evidence.

Wondering where is the video of the arrest etc.. Hello, this is Bali. Hells teeth the NZ police could not manage that at short notice in Timaru (as an example) and we are supposedly a 'superior' society???

We have to stop comparing and thinking our system is better. Thats neither here nor there. The fact is she is in trouble there and it will be judged by Indonesian stds. It's their country.

Cheers

[scumdog]

After reading the above I'm struggling to think what Indonesia has to offer that isn't available at a 'safer' location??

Go there and take your chances, after all you are visiting 'their' territory.