The ACC saga - a new approach.

[Ronin]

Discount on insurance...well we can't force commercial companies to implement that, but it'd be common sense for the insurance companies to do so.
Discount rego/ACC levies on a similar level to how insurance companies work would seem the most obvious idea. There's a minority (but still far too many)l of riders out there who seem to fall off quite a lot. Discount for number of claim free years. Discount for taking advanced rider training. Put a weighting on riders with lots of points. Multi-bike discount would also be nice too. Fuck it...scrap ACC :-)

I still think that having Rego fees linked to demerit points is a great idea.

[caseye]

First, equality of all motorists when it comes to fees.
Second,One registration per year per person that attracts an ACC content.All other vehicles owned by that person to be registered annually at current registration costs, only.All vehicles owned to be maintained to WOF standard and seen annually! not 6 monthly.
Third,Fleet owners pay rego and ACC on all vehicles owned by the fleet operator as they attract multiple drivers etc employed by and who's ACC content is paid for by the fleet operator anyhow ,ie : status quo.
Fouth,Discounts for years in/on vehicles without accidnet or incident.
Fifth,Further discounts for advanced course attended for any/all vehicles.
Sixth,Further discounts for those riders who regularly employ ATGATT.
OK Thats my starters list.
It's simple and uncomplicated.
Now all I've got to do is get a whole bunch of hairy arsed bikers to agree to all or most of it and then put their actual support behind me to take it further.
Keep kicking this football folks lets see what else comes of it.
I'm involved in trying to change attitudes from within now and I can tell you it's no easy road.But I consider it worth a crack!.

[Katman]

First, equality of all motorists when it comes to fees.
Second,One registration per year per person that attracts an ACC content.All other vehicles owned by that person to be registered annually at current registration costs, only.All vehicles owned to be maintained to WOF standard and seen annually! not 6 monthly.
Third,Fleet owners pay rego and ACC on all vehicles owned by the fleet operator as they attract multiple drivers etc employed by and who's ACC content is paid for by the fleet operator anyhow ,ie : status quo.
Fouth,Discounts for years in/on vehicles without accidnet or incident.
Fifth,Further discounts for advanced course attended for any/all vehicles.
Sixth,Further discounts for those riders who regularly employ ATGATT.
OK Thats my starters list.
It's simple and uncomplicated.
Now all I've got to do is get a whole bunch of hairy arsed bikers to agree to all or most of it and then put their actual support behind me to take it further.
Keep kicking this football folks lets see what else comes of it.
I'm involved in trying to change attitudes from within now and I can tell you it's no easy road.But I consider it worth a crack!.

Sorry Mark, but that's just going back to the same old demanding what we want.

The idea of this thread is to work out what we can do for ourselves, and how we can work with ACC, to improve our lot.

Until we achieve that we have no show of getting the government to take the slightest notice of what we want.

[mashman]

Sorry Mark, but that's just going back to the same old demanding what we want.

The idea of this thread is to work out what we can do for ourselves, and how we can work with ACC, to improve our lot.

Until we achieve that we have no show of getting the government to take the slightest notice of what we want.

Have you broken down the ACC stats to find out what area actually needs to be targeted? or are you just hitting and hoping? A magazine would yield obvious results.

[StoneY]

For once Katmans thread not only held merit but has come to be a partial reality.

BRONZ is working with ACC to assist with sensible spending of the ACC levy money.
BRONZ Wellington was actively approached for this purpose (by ACC) and provided riders and equipment for modeling purposes with assistance of two local bike shops.

We have invited a professional training organization to assist us with good advice in a cooperative partnership, who they are is privy to BRONZ members at this time but will be made public in the future.

Subsidized training courses are rolling out to approved qualified training institutes and services.
Issue's around 'minimum standards' of safety gear under discussion.
Online resources being re-vamped and brought up to date with links to essential services and training resources refreshed and updated.

I have found out over the last few weeks that we were heard on the 17th of November last year.
Important people in ACC were at Parliament, and seeing 6000 + bikes ride in one group and no bins, we earned their respect and now have an open channel of communication to the office that matters.

BRONZ will have a national rep on the committee that spends this money, and we are already being heard, as well as actively sought for advice.

Charles Lambs carefully researched data is in their hands and many of the myths are now being busted.

While the levy increase was unpalatable and largely unfair, we have an angle on the inside and will be working to ensure we get better treatment in all future decisions regarding the future of motorcyclists and the ACC system.

BRONZ still seeks to achieve many of the points in Mark's post above (Casseye to those that do not know the man) but meantime we can achieve some of our goals by cooperating and advising the people holding the purse strings, and that is a reality that is happening already.

Shiny side up
StoneY

[davereid]

Have you broken down the ACC stats to find out what area actually needs to be targeted?

I have done the numbers. And motorcyclists are doing very well.

We have the lowest accident rate ever. However, our overall costs are higher

- Many motorcyclists are high income earners.

- Helmets have have reduced death rate by a few percent, at the cost of a massive increase in long term medical care for brain injured (but alive) bikers, and paraplegic/tetraplegic bikers.

We are on average very good drivers..

71 % of our crashes are collisions and motorcyclists are responsible for 1/3 of these accidents.

Of all crashes including single vehicle ones, the motorcyclist was primarily responsible for 51%.

Note : When statistics indicate motorcyclists are primarily responsible for 51% of all crashes, this actually indicates a good standard of driving.

Consider a population of 100 vehicles.
If they all crash in single vehicle crashes, then they are primarily responsible for 100% of crashes.
If they all crash into another vehicle, they are primarily responsible for 50% of crashes.

The BEST result for a subset of the general population that you could statistically expect is 50%, the worst is 100%

So bikers are doing pretty well.

(Source http://www.transport.govt.nz/researc...-Factsheet.pdf)

[Viking01]

Hi,
This thread has been an interesting read this afternoon. Still thinking about what many have said, and mulling over some of the ideas in my mind. Some are quite positive.

Do I have anything specific to contribute at this moment : No - not right now - I'm still thinking about some of the issues discussed.

A few thoughts or observations along the way (targetted at none in particular, by the way):

1. KB Safety Forum (or Safer Rider Forum)
Am I missing something, or do we NOT have a specific KB forum (or sub-forum) dedicated to improving motorcycle safety ?
I can see (i) ACC Levy (ii) Survivor Skills , but I can't see one dedicated to improving motorcycle safety. I see certain companies that offer rider safety courses posting in the General forum, but not in a forum dedicated to promoting and supporting Safer Riding. If there is a specific forum for that purpose, I'm happy to be directed there and to read it, if it is bured somewhere.

2. ACC Promoting Rider Safety / Not Paying ACC Levies
Have I worked at ACC in the last three years, and seen how some of the organisation work and their systems operate - Yes.
Let's not fault the organisation and its people for some of the political decisions that are being made in their name.

Do I think that some of the ACC income stream could be more / better directed towards promoting and supporting rider safety - Yes.
Maybe they do need our help, and maybe 'Yes', a more concerted and co-ordinated voice would help.

Do I like the increased ACC levy levels for motorcycles - No, not particularly. Do I pay my ACC levies (via vehicle registration) - Yes, without exception. [Two cars plus two motorcycles - one 250cc , one 800cc]. Do I like other road users avoiding paying ACC levies while I do pay - well, it does fees like I'm subsidising a health and rehabilitaion service that non-contributors will still be able to take advantage of - should they need to - but at no cost to themselves. Totally their choice, but not particularly equitable. That's life.

3. The Scooter Riders
I read regularly in and around Wellington, and to work as often as I can. Before going further ((i) Yes, I ride a Honda (ii) Yes, I ride fully geared up at all times (iii) Yes, I do watch my speed most of the time - although I prefer to watch the road instead (iv) Yes, I'm over 50 (with teenage boys who ride, and with the proper gear).

But I have to say some of you scooter riders scare the "#$%&" out of me, when riding with just a helmet (and maybe gloves). I have to admire your courage (?). Even one or two who posted today remarked (i) why should I wear full safety gear when I'm only doing 50 km/hour at most ? And why should I pay the same in ACC levies as those riding bigger machines ? Interesting quetions.

All I can surmise is that (i) you have never tried to jump off their scooter onto coarse chip at 50km/hour as a practical test, or ever had to do so - and evaluated the benefit of protective gear (ii) somehow you think you can't do much that damage at that speed - maybe a visit to A&E and to surgery might be instructive (iii) that skin grafts must somehow be seen as 'cool' or 'desirable' (maybe like getting tattos) , that it doesn't hurt getting them, and that getting reconstructive surgey and skin grafts can't really cost that much. Well, far be it from me to burst your bubble. I can only hope your luck holds.

And lastly, have I had a recent crash ? Yes - I 'lost' the Honda (at low speed on ice) going to work in the dark recently. 215kgs of Honda ended up on my right leg, pining me to the road. Luckily, only a few bumps and bruises (and no breaks) - very fortunate.
Q: Did I think beforehand I would never have an accident - No. But I did hope that would be the case.
Q: Could it have been prevented - Don't think so. Have been riding a while, and i'm always a cautious rider.
Q: Did previous riding practice save me - No. Not in this case. It all happened so quickly, and without warning.
Q: Did protective gear make a difference - Yes. Absolutely. No boots and bare legs would not have been pretty.
Q: Any claim on ACC - No.

[Viking01]

Hi,
This thread has been an interesting read this afternoon. Still thinking about what many have said, and mulling over some of the ideas in my mind. Some are quite positive.

Do I have anything specific to contribute at this moment : No - not right now - I'm still thinking about some of the issues discussed.

A few thoughts or observations along the way (targetted at none in particular, by the way):

1. KB Safety Forum (or Safer Rider Forum)
Am I missing something, or do we NOT have a specific KB forum (or sub-forum) dedicated to improving motorcycle safety ?
I can see (i) ACC Levy (ii) Survivor Skills , but I can't see one dedicated to improving motorcycle safety. I see certain companies that offer rider safety courses posting in the General forum, but not in a forum dedicated to promoting and supporting Safer Riding. If there is a specific forum for that purpose, I'm happy to be directed there and to read it, if it is bured somewhere.

2. ACC Promoting Rider Safety / Not Paying ACC Levies
Have I worked at ACC in the last three years, and seen how some of the organisation work and their systems operate - Yes.
Let's not fault the organisation and its people for some of the political decisions that are being made in their name.

Do I think that some of the ACC income stream could be more / better directed towards promoting and supporting rider safety - Yes.
Maybe they do need our help, and maybe 'Yes', a more concerted and co-ordinated voice would help.

Do I like the increased ACC levy levels for motorcycles - No, not particularly. Do I pay my ACC levies (via vehicle registration) - Yes, without exception. [Two cars plus two motorcycles - one 250cc , one 800cc]. Do I like other road users avoiding paying ACC levies while I do pay - well, it does fees like I'm subsidising a health and rehabilitaion service that non-contributors will still be able to take advantage of - should they need to - but at no cost to themselves. Totally their choice, but not particularly equitable. That's life.

3. The Scooter Riders
I read regularly in and around Wellington, and to work as often as I can. Before going further ((i) Yes, I ride a Honda (ii) Yes, I ride fully geared up at all times (iii) Yes, I do watch my speed most of the time - although I prefer to watch the road instead (iv) Yes, I'm over 50 (with teenage boys who ride, and with the proper gear).

But I have to say some of you scooter riders scare the "#$%&" out of me, when riding with just a helmet (and maybe gloves). I have to admire your courage (?). Even one or two who posted today remarked (i) why should I wear full safety gear when I'm only doing 50 km/hour at most ? And why should I pay the same in ACC levies as those riding bigger machines ? Interesting quetions.

All I can surmise is that (i) you have never tried to jump off their scooter onto coarse chip at 50km/hour as a practical test, or ever had to do so - and evaluated the benefit of protective gear (ii) somehow you think you can't do much that damage at that speed - maybe a visit to A&E and to surgery might be instructive (iii) that skin grafts must somehow be seen as 'cool' or 'desirable' (maybe like getting tattos) , that it doesn't hurt getting them, and that getting reconstructive surgey and skin grafts can't really cost that much. Well, far be it from me to burst your bubble. I can only hope your luck holds.

And lastly, have I had a recent crash ? Yes - I 'lost' the Honda (at low speed on ice) going to work in the dark recently. 215kgs of Honda ended up on my right leg, pining me to the road. Luckily, only a few bumps and bruises (and no breaks) - very fortunate.
Q: Did I think beforehand I would never have an accident - No. But I did hope that would be the case.
Q: Could it have been prevented - Don't think so. Have been riding a while, and i'm always a cautious rider.
Q: Did previous riding practice save me - No. Not in this case. It all happened so quickly, and without warning.
Q: Did protective gear make a difference - Yes. Absolutely. No boots and bare legs would not have been pretty.
Q: Any claim on ACC - No.

[onearmedbandit]

Ok, here's an idea.

A full page ad run in all the motorcycle magazines.

Get two or three of New Zealands top motorcycle racers on board and run a full page photo of them - arms folded across their chests looking staunch - with the words above them saying "Think you're good enough? See you on the track". Underneath the photo the words 'The road is not a racetrack'.

One problem with that is a lot of riders who do ride fast on the road are aware they are not at the level of NZ's top racers, and on top ofhat they don't aspire to. They just enjoy riding their bikes at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits.

[onearmedbandit]

Ok, here's an idea.

A full page ad run in all the motorcycle magazines.

Get two or three of New Zealands top motorcycle racers on board and run a full page photo of them - arms folded across their chests looking staunch - with the words above them saying "Think you're good enough? See you on the track". Underneath the photo the words 'The road is not a racetrack'.

One problem with that is a lot of riders who do ride fast on the road are aware they are not at the level of NZ's top racers, and on top ofhat they don't aspire to. They just enjoy riding their bikes at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits.

[PrincessBandit]

And to all of you coming up with wonderful ideas on how to make ACC and public like us...and save lots of lives by improving skills and what not...

Start with yourself and your skills before wanting to preach to anybody else! (how about that?)

I have never come off a bike...like ever! have been riding since i was 15...now i would not dare to start telling someone how to ride or what to do about safety, its a big responsibility to take on, so you not coming off for long time means fuck all (you were lucky too just like me) and doesnt give you "licence" to preach either.

A lot of people are trying to find ways to make a positive impact on the current situation motorcyclists are facing themselves in. People having to now put rego on hold (which they normally wouldn't do), people even deciding to sell their bikes because they can't afford to keep them legally on the road anymore. Note the word [I]legall[/I]y.
Rather than getting uptight because you feel you're being preached at, either come up with something positive and workable, or stop reading threads which upset your sensitive nature.

Oh, and for the record, a lot of riders are "starting with the man (or woman) in the mirror". If you had been around long enough you might have noticed that.

[Katman]

They just enjoy riding their bikes at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits.

Hey, even I enjoy riding my bike at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits. The fact that my license is currently dangling by a thread is testament to that fact. (Having said that, the highest ticketed speed has been for 125kph).

Treating the road as a racetrack however, is a totally different thing and we need to do whatever we can to remove the culture that sees it as acceptable to ride in such a manner.

[davereid]

Treating the road as a racetrack however, is a totally different thing and we need to do whatever we can to remove the culture that sees it as acceptable to ride in such a manner.

The facts would suggest that even a massive effort in up-skilling and attitude modification would have little effect. It cannot be overlooked that 71% of crashes are collisions and we contribute to only 1/3 of those.

Even considering the overall balance of crashes, we are way and above the best drivers in NZ.

If ACC really want to save money, they should ban helmets. It would drop the long term support costs for the annual crop of alive but brain dead bikers almost to nil.

But, the elimination of the brain dead would destroy kiwibiker... so best avoided.

[Katman]

Even considering the overall balance of crashes, we are way and above the best drivers in NZ.

Man, I want some of what you're on.

[Ocean1]

Man, I want some of what you're on.

It's only available to people that didn't skip most of their 3rd form arithemetic classes.