The ACC saga - a new approach.

[shrub]

Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely.

On the subject of training, I have a bit of a problem with most of the advanced rider training on offer. I have done a few courses with a couple of trainers and most of them have been focussed on riding fast on Levels or Ruapuna. A little bit of very basic braking, but the rest has been how to corner fast.

The risk is you get someone with a year or two experience under their belt doing a course like that and they come out feeling confident to cut up the Akaroa GP like a pro; which they do, and often result in fuel for Katman's argument. The courses I did didn't teach to look for shadows and damp road surface, slow cars with traffic banked up behind and impatient overtaking, blind spots in traffic, parked cars with turning front wheels and all the other stuff that keeps me alive every day. I did a course nearly 30 years ago at Bay Park, and part of the course was making us ride fast around the speedway track. I learned to slide my CB750 and brake hard on gravel, and those skills have kept me upright many times. Only problem is if a trainer were to suggest that their students ride their Gixxers and Ducatis fast on a gravel road there would be a mass revolt.

[MSTRS:Me]

I learned to slide my CB750 and brake hard on gravel, and those skills have kept me upright many times. Only problem is if a trainer were to suggest that their students ride their Gixxers and Ducatis fast on a gravel road there would be a mass revolt.

I am comfortable going 'fast' on gravel with my CB750, but not on my Gixxer. The difference (apart from the weighting geometry) is the tyres. Wide, low profile tyres and gravel are anathema to each other.

[dipshit]

Wide, low profile tyres and gravel are anathema to each other.

Not to mention all the plastic bodywork!

[R-Soul]

That is very different from what Our Masters tell us - if we were to listen to them even travelling 6 kmh over the speed limit almost guarantees killing innocent widows and children.

It was also interesting to see how many were caused by lack of skill and by unlicensed riders - I had no idea the number was so high. I'm also curious what percentage were caused by other road users - do you have that data readily available?

Speed is relative: Maybe the speed was not excessive for that part of the road, but it was excessive for the rider...

The stats seem to indicate that we are idiots that do dumb things with minimal training, and riding above our abilities. Nah... can't be that..

[dipshit]

The stats seem to indicate that we are idiots that do dumb things with minimal training, and riding above our abilities. Nah... can't be that..

Course not. Bloody car drivers. We need better training for the car drivers.

[R-Soul]

Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely. Even some full licence holders did that. One thing not available on the crash reports is actual riding experience. You can ride only on sunny summer weekends and still be inexperienced, so it isn’t just learners.

That should be implemented immediately in reporting - as well as how long since coming back to motorcycling- I am sure that those figures woul highlight some glaring facts.

[Ocean1]

6) Don’t stamp on the back brake when you get in to a corner too hot.

Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely.

I've always believed that the majority of motorcycle accidents have been the result of bravado or incompetence.

Fear.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration…

Actually, seeing as I am starting to rant, I don’t see why I should be paying an additional 30 bucks in the first place. Money grabbing bastards.

You don’t have to justify a good rant mate, just let rip.

[Katman]

Found a few interesting things while trawling through the 140 ‘speed’ related crash reports.

Any chance you could give us a similar analysis of your observations of the motorcycle fatality stats from the other thread?

[Berries]

I could, but I am not sure that it will add anything worthwhile to the discussion other than to sadden a lot of people on here who knew some of the people who are no longer with us.

The post you refer to shows that in two thirds of the crashes the rider was at fault. The info I have to hand shows that 19 of the 49 crashes involved no other vehicle. Nearly three quarters of the crashes occurred on the open road and losing control on a bend accounted for 60% of all the crashes. Alcohol was a factor in 1 in 6 crashes. Beyond that, I'd need to have a closer look to make sure I don't post anything inaccurate.

[Katman]

I could, but I am not sure that it will add anything worthwhile to the discussion other than to sadden a lot of people on here who knew some of the people who are no longer with us.

The post you refer to shows that in two thirds of the crashes the rider was at fault. The info I have to hand shows that 19 of the 49 crashes involved no other vehicle. Nearly three quarters of the crashes occurred on the open road and losing control on a bend accounted for 60% of all the crashes. Alcohol was a factor in 1 in 6 crashes. Beyond that, I'd need to have a closer look to make sure I don't post anything inaccurate.

Cheers for that.

I firmly believe that in order to move forward it's imperative we dispel, once and for all, the myth that most motorcycle accidents are someone else's fault. Only then we will start looking at ourselves collectively in a manner that will see an improvement.

[shrub]

Cheers for that.

I firmly believe that in order to move forward it's imperative we dispel, once and for all, the myth that most motorcycle accidents are someone else's fault. Only then we will start looking at ourselves collectively in a manner that will see an improvement.

I think very few motorcyclists that have been riding longer than 10 minutes think most motorcycle crashes are someone else's fault, and rather that the fault is reasonably evenly split between the parties. What annoys me is the opinion that is prevalent amongst Our Masters (and it seems, with you) that the overwhelming majority of crashes are the primary fault of the motorcycle rider. That's why we have had our levies increased, why we're not listened to by the policy makers and why the road conditions and road rules are not designed to cater for the unique characteristics of motorcycles as vehicles.

[Katman]

I think very few motorcyclists that have been riding longer than 10 minutes think most motorcycle crashes are someone else's fault, and rather that the fault is reasonably evenly split between the parties. What annoys me is the opinion that is prevalent amongst Our Masters (and it seems, with you) that the overwhelming majority of crashes are the primary fault of the motorcycle rider. That's why we have had our levies increased, why we're not listened to by the policy makers and why the road conditions and road rules are not designed to cater for the unique characteristics of motorcycles as vehicles.

One of the most prevalent phrases uttered by motorcyclists for as long as I can remember has been "but most of our accidents are the fault of the car driver" - when, in fact, the very opposite is the case.

The sooner we come to terms with that concept, the sooner we'll start making moves to change it.

[shrub]

One of the most prevalent phrases uttered by motorcyclists for as long as I can remember has been "but most of our accidents are the fault of the car driver" - when, in fact, the very opposite is the case.

The sooner we come to terms with that concept, the sooner we'll start making moves to change it.

I think that's bullshit and that crashes have a wide range of causes and there is no real leading cause. I also think most motorcyclists realise this.

[R-Soul]

I think that's bullshit and that crashes have a wide range of causes and there is no real leading cause. I also think most motorcyclists realise this.

Actually no, its not bullshit - have a look at some of teh angry reactions on this site when ACC levy increases were first announced. It was everybody eleses fault but us.

In a way the ACC levy increase has perhaps made us sit up and take notice of our own actions a bit.

I think that we need to emphasiss the seriousness of the consequences for relatively inexperienced riders to be tootling around, without good training or technique. a ride on a bike is treated with the same respect as taking a car for a sundaty ride really - and as pointed out, it actually takes a lot more skill, awareness, and experience to be able to do so at anything close to the levels of risk of a car.

[Kickaha]

I think that's bullshit and that crashes have a wide range of causes and there is no real leading cause. I also think most motorcyclists realise this.

It was quoted by several people including a Christchurch motorcycle shop owner in a radio interview that 75% of motorcycle accidents were caused by "someone else"

I would disagree that "most motorcyclists realise this" as that figure was also quoted on here more times than the correct figures