The ACC saga - a new approach.

[shrub]

shrub, Kat you guys are closer than you think, only thing missing here is agreement from either of you that the way forward is for bikers to stand up and say" yep we screw up alot" then and only then, the car drivers will acknowledge their own deficencies and allow that together, car, bike, truck , bus etc drivers can do something about making thier own driving habits safer for all others out there.
Shit I hate having my bike in pieces.Still, won't belong now. Look forward to riding south and cathcing up again Katman.

Where I'm coming from is that most road users need to lift their game (I certainly do), and as motorcyclists we have a greater stake in seeing road user behaviour improve than car and truck drivers because what is a minor fender bender in a car is a hospital visit (or worse) to us. That means we need to take a position of leadership and start pushing for Our Masters to lift their game and stop obsessing about speed at the expense of all other behaviour. We need to see a push for awareness of other road users, campaigning against driver inattention and a change to the licensing regime.

I disagree with Katman that we need to sit around and wait for motorcyclists to get their act together because if we do that we'll be waiting forever.

[dipshit]

I disagree with Katman that we need to sit around and wait for motorcyclists to get their act together because if we do that we'll be waiting forever.

So 75 to 80% of motorcycle fatalities are the fault of the motorcyclist so we need better training for car drivers...???

[Katman]

I disagree with Katman that we need to sit around and wait for motorcyclists to get their act together because if we do that we'll be waiting forever.

Since the word go your argument has been based around your belief that motorcycling's statistics aren't as bad as we're being lead to believe. Even when a crash scene investigator (who is also a motorcyclist) shows that they are damn near spot on you still refuse to acknowledge the extent of our problem.

It's that sort of ostrich-like behaviour that makes a laughing stock of us.

[shrub]

Since the word go your argument has been based around your belief that motorcycling's statistics aren't as bad as we're being lead to believe. Even when a crash scene investigator (who is also a motorcyclist) shows that they are damn near spot on you still refuse to acknowledge the extent of our problem.

It's that sort of ostrich-like behaviour that makes a laughing stock of us.

I agree that motorcyclists seem to be at fault in the majority of crashes - I assumed about 60% of crashes, it seems it's closer to 75%, but my argument is, and always has been, that while we definitely need to improve the way we ride, it's a joint responsibility. If the figures were 95%, then I'd be happy to say that other road users don't have a part to play, but I believe they do. You may be happy to bend over and say "sorry, other road users don't need to change a thing they do, we're the problem", but I don't.

It is my experience, based on riding bikes and driving cars that a huge proportion of car drivers lack the skills they need and/or have appalling attitudes, therefore it is my belief that all road users need to lift their game.

If you disagree, then you're either not using the same roads as me, or you're so bound up in your anti-motorcyclist view that you can't see what's in front of you and it's you that's playing ostrich.

[MSTRS:Me]

I agree that motorcyclists seem to be at fault in the majority of crashes -

True. But do note that the % varies, depending whether the crash was injury or death. It seems that, as the severity of injury increases, the higher the likelihood of the rider being the one at fault. That is definitely where we need to start.

[shrub]

True. But do note that the % varies, depending whether the crash was injury or death. It seems that, as the severity of injury increases, the higher the likelihood of the rider being the one at fault. That is definitely where we need to start.

That's an interesting observation. You're right, the stats for crashes and fatalities are significantly different, and unfortunately focussing on fatalities feeds the ant-motorcycle lobby. There's also the issue that any crash is a problem because the overwhelming majority of crashes result in injury and damage to the motorcycle, so we can't ignore non-fatal crashes.

[bogan]

another factor is the cost vs return of any training or legislation scheme. Proportions of bikers/cagers that need the training, effectiveness of training. Which is a lot harder to get stats on.

If you are trying to convince tptb to train cagers, saying it could save 10 bikers a year sounds shit compared to saying it could save 200 motorists per year. If you want to train cagers it shouldn't be about bikers.

[dipshit]

It is my experience, based on riding bikes and driving cars that a huge proportion of car drivers lack the skills they need and/or have appalling attitudes, therefore it is my belief that all road users need to lift their game.

Your experience and opinion means jack-shit compared to the NZ road statistics. This isn't about you or any one individual.

[Katman]

If you disagree, then you're either not using the same roads as me, or you're so bound up in your anti-motorcyclist view that you can't see what's in front of you and it's you that's playing ostrich.

You know shrub, sometimes you let your argument slip to the piss-weak level that Ixion was often guilty of.

The truth is, I have no "splenetic hatred of motorcyclists" - I'm just being brutally honest.

[mashman]

Your experience and opinion means jack-shit compared to the NZ road statistics. This isn't about you or any one individual.

I beg to differ... it's about EVERY individual taking responsibility for their actions on the road, at work (ACC discount ), at home etc... education and not legislation will yield better results imho... Just ask Katman . Statistics can be shown to prove anything, or disprove anything for that matter

[dipshit]

I beg to differ... it's about EVERY individual taking responsibility for their actions on the road, at work (ACC discount ), at home etc... education and not legislation will yield better results imho... Just ask Katman . Statistics can be shown to prove anything, or disprove anything for that matter

I mean the government isn't going to ask shrub what he thinks and for his opinion. They are going to look at NZLT numbers and figures.

[mashman]

I mean the government isn't going to ask shrub what he thinks and for his opinion. They are going to look at NZLT numbers and figures.

fair enough... but until BRONZ have been told to sod off and it's public knowledge, i'll still hold out a little hope that sense will prevail and that BRONZ will add a touch of "real life" in terms of the direction of "motoring"

As far as i'm concerened, shrub is spot on too. We know there were 33 rider fault crashes, but, even if only a quarter of those were fatal, are the statistics for those crashes going to be accurate? I doubt it (even Berries has his suspicions), ESPECIALLY if it's a multi and there's a dead biker that can't speak for himself (you survive, are you going to accept a charge of murder if the "victim" is dead? I bet not)... perhaps i'm wrong and am more than happy to take the dressing down for my opinions...

EVERY road user needs to up their game, not just US.

[Bald Eagle]

Road injuries and deaths involve and affect everybody. A bit like elephant consumption we need to take small bites in lots of places on the beast.

Rider / driver education, road engineering, public awareness, legislative reviews all come into the mix.

A smaller than intended levy increase, a dedicated and protected Motorcycle Safety funding pool are steps in the right direction and a lot of people are very active in addressing issues and evolving processes going forward.

It is now time to work together with the powers that be to improve relationships, perceptions and behaviors. If we are not part of and engaged in solutions then we remain part of the problem.

[R-Soul]

I agree that motorcyclists seem to be at fault in the majority of crashes - I assumed about 60% of crashes, it seems it's closer to 75%, but my argument is, and always has been, that while we definitely need to improve the way we ride, it's a joint responsibility. If the figures were 95%, then I'd be happy to say that other road users don't have a part to play, but I believe they do. You may be happy to bend over and say "sorry, other road users don't need to change a thing they do, we're the problem", but I don't.

It is my experience, based on riding bikes and driving cars that a huge proportion of car drivers lack the skills they need and/or have appalling attitudes, therefore it is my belief that all road users need to lift their game.

If you disagree, then you're either not using the same roads as me, or you're so bound up in your anti-motorcyclist view that you can't see what's in front of you and it's you that's playing ostrich.

Yes of course greater levels of attention all round would be marvellous. BUT: surely it makes the most sense to focus on what can be changed most readily and easily. You will NEVER erase all inattention in car drivers OR bike riders. Thats human nature. We are inattentive. We can make people aware of teh dire consequences of inattention, yes. We already do in failry striking Tv ads etc. but it will take 95% effort to get rid of the last 5% of teh problem.

CLEARLY from what Berries has said, the main problem seems to be that riders just dont know how to handle their bikes. Riders going off road, losing control of their bikes, in the dry, not even speeding. Clear as daylight, too many of us just dont know how to ride. but we do anyhow.

It makes us seem dumb as hell, and just maybe we ARE. But now we are on the way to recognising what the problem IS, we can finally find ways to solve it. Obviously the solution is ensuring that ALL riders know how to control their bike. And control it WELL.

I propose a two pronged attack.

New riders: Will need to go on an INTENSIVE riding course on both road and track to get them fully acquainted with their bikes abilities and efficient control thereof, as well as road hazards. Germany has one of the lowest accident rates in the world, despite having speed unlimited Autobahns. Why? Because they have the most intensive driver training courses. Why are we even hesitating about this aspect?

Older riders: Insist on regular attendance at Advanced rider training days on tracks, and/or make attendance at track days subsidised and more readily affordable. I propose this for two reasons: Firstly, this will enable riders to learn better control of their bikes, and their bikes abilities (and will teach old riders coming back into riding to remember their control again quickly) to prevent freeze ups and panic reactions.

Secondly, just having spent time on track has made me more docile on the road. Whereas before I was always looking for an opportunity gap to "see what this thing can do", I have now seen what it can do, and I know that if I am anywhere close to what it can do on the road, I will be in mortal danger. So I dont even bother.

So, in summary, its secondly to get your monthly/quarterly fix of adrenalin in enough quantities that you dont go looking for it on the road.

[mashman]

Yes of course greater levels of attention all round would be marvellous. BUT: surely it makes the most sense to focus on what can be changed most readily and easily.

Which is what exactly? After all, you're only changing the attitude/perception of 2% of the road going fleet... Money well spent WTF!!! I call bullshit argument, nay, I shall Katman yaw ass Mr Ostrich ... Do everyone or don't bother.

So, in summary, its secondly to get your monthly/quarterly fix of adrenalin in enough quantities that you dont go looking for it on the road.

Because we always go out with the intention of using the road as a racetrack ... that's a HUGE assumption... SOME decide to twist the throttle on a whim (a controlled whim)! I guarantee that that is a FACT! some don't. Riders choice @Adrenalin... i can get adrenalin at home when releasing a warm fart