The ACC saga - a new approach.

[That looks like fun]

We are either the solution or the problem.

Education, using the ring-fenced ACC fund, is probably the only practical way to reach all and sundry.
Some safety ads, for sure.
Promotion of protective gear.
Rider training days, both theory and practical like RRRS do.
Perhaps the training days can be subsidised? Or attend, and pass a certain level of proficiency, gives you a discount on your rego/insurance or voucher for 'free' stuff at a bike shop?



Safety ads alone will not, never have never will "fix it". A multi pronged attack focusing on creating either the desire or will to change bad habits.
Money talks (if it didn't we would pay the increase and not complain), so offering monetary gains to show improvements (levels of training achieved etc) seems to me to be the simplest and most achievable option for bikers to pursue.
I believe BRONZ (love em or hate em at least they are trying) have already made noises in this area.
It is easy to feel angry and frustrated by the believe of powerlessness to our own destiny, however as the man said so well
We are either the solution or the problem

[R-Soul]

Training of licenced riders is another issue. By all means offer up the opportunities, but what are the incentives for someone who doesn’t believe that they need that training ? Make it compulsory for all riders? Well, if it is free and fits in with my schedule then I might have a look, otherwise I’m not interested.

.....

I do not believe it is within the power of the riding community to improve the crash stats. Most riders don’t crash. Most riders who do crash don’t intend to. Give them all the training in the world and they’ll still hit the car pulling out of the intersection, or just go slightly too fast in to the bend, or fail to see the brake lights in front. Or ride while munted. That’s because we are human.

The only way I see that the figures can be brought down is...

???What have you done with Berries?

YOU have just told us that the stats say that most of our accidents are bikers riding alone that just dont know how to control their own bikes. Now you turn around and say that it is not within our power to control our own destiny? Of course it is! By learning how to freaking ride properly- and taking the matter of skills development and saftey standards seriously. And not treating bikes as toys unless you are using them within proper play areas.

Perhaps I agree that we dont have the attitude within the riding communioty to enforce this on ourselves.

The stats show that our skills are seriously lacking on average. before anybody bleats about it, that reflects on ALL of us. Either for not haviong teh right attitude to tell our mates when to stop acting like assholes on the road, or for not being encouraging enough, or taking the tough line with people that dont take the time to get their skills up to speed. That includes criticising older riders that have come back, and are rusty, or never had tehinitial skills.

Of course, some people cannot afford all the courses, and this is where the government must come in - by making them freely available, and ENFORCING their usage. Because the government cannot discriminate between riders, such skills training courses would need to be enforced on EVERYBODY, and regular intervals. And the courses would also need to be frank and critical, and give honest feedback on that persons skills, so that they could have a realistic view of their abilities (I mean other wise we all feel that we could be the next Valentino right?) and be encouraged to do the next one, or redo the current one.

Now if they could be set at various levels choosable by the rider, and be enjoyable, I reckon not many people would mind upping their skills. I also reckon some riders who think that they have *great skills* may get a big surprise.

Better they get a surprise at a course, than in a corner that they have just lost traction on.

[MSTRS:Me]

... that most of our accidents are bikers riding alone that just dont know how to control their own bikes. Now you turn around and say that it is not within our power to control our own destiny? ...

You are both saying the same thing. MOST don't crash. But those that do, for whatever reason (lack of skills or observation), tend to be the ones who are killed.
We can ALL improve, but there is no way that we will all stop crashing. The best we can hope for is a significant reduction in the number who do crash, esp through their own fault.

[That looks like fun]

[QUOTE=R-Soul;1129831818]???What have you done with Berries?
Of course, some people cannot afford all the courses, and this is where the government must come in - by making them freely available, and ENFORCING their usage. Because the government cannot discriminate between riders, such skills training courses would need to be enforced on EVERYBODY, and regular intervals. And the courses would also need to be frank and critical, and give honest feedback on that persons skills, so that they could have a realistic view of their abilities (I mean other wise we all feel that we could be the next Valentino right?) and be encouraged to do the next one, or redo the current one.

Now we are starting to get there Free, maybe. Available, definitely. Enforced No way... incentives so people "want" to attend
Those who choose not to are not penalized, they are simply not rewarded

[Berries]

The stats show that our skills are seriously lacking on average. before anybody bleats about it, that reflects on ALL of us.

I'll bleat first then because I have to disagree with that. All the stats show are the lack of skills from the people involved in crashes, which is a minority of riders. It does not necessarily indicate a lack of skills across the board.

You are assuming that nobody can ride by saying training should be compulsory for everyone. That will probably be seen as a bit much by those people who have been riding for years, have done all the courses and have never had an off. I for one do not want to do a course. Oh I am sure we could all learn something, but to be made to go on a course because other people crash their bikes ? How’s that work then ? Maybe I should go on a fire safety course as well because a house down the street burnt down recently…….

How about improving or increasing the number of training courses and having a financial incentive to go on them – seeing as the end result should be a saving to the ACC. And if you have been charged in relation to a crash then there should be some compulsion to go on a course before you are allowed your licence back. Hard to enforce, but aim the training at the people who need it, not at everyone just because they ride a bike. Otherwise you will divide the biking community, if there is such a thing, which is the opposite of what is needed.

MOST don't crash. But those that do, for whatever reason (lack of skills or observation), tend to be the ones who are killed.

+1. Yet to see someone killed who wasn't in a crash.

[Katman]

How about improving or increasing the number of training courses and having a financial incentive to go on them – seeing as the end result should be a saving to the ACC. And if you have been charged in relation to a crash then there should be some compulsion to go on a course before you are allowed your licence back. Hard to enforce, but aim the training at the people who need it, not at everyone just because they ride a bike. Otherwise you will divide the biking community, if there is such a thing, which is the opposite of what is needed.

I agree.

Toughening up the learner stages of the licensing process and offering a financial incentive for more experienced riders to brush up on their skills should be all that's needed to address the lack of/ability issue.

Achieving a widespread change in attitude is likely to be a whole lot tougher.

[Berries]

Achieving a widespread change in attitude is likely to be a whole lot tougher.

I'd say impossible. People ride for their own reasons and what other people think doesn't really come in to it. Well, that's the case for me anyway.

[Katman]

I'd say impossible. People ride for their own reasons and what other people think doesn't really come in to it. Well, that's the case for me anyway.

I'd suggest that there's been a widespread change in attitude towards drink driving.

I can't see why something similar couldn't be achieved in motorcycling.

[R-Soul]

I'll bleat first then because I have to disagree with that. All the stats show are the lack of skills from the people involved in crashes, which is a minority of riders. It does not necessarily indicate a lack of skills across the board.

You are assuming that nobody can ride by saying training should be compulsory for everyone. That will probably be seen as a bit much by those people who have been riding for years, have done all the courses and have never had an off. I for one do not want to do a course. Oh I am sure we could all learn something, but to be made to go on a course because other people crash their bikes ? How’s that work then ? Maybe I should go on a fire safety course as well because a house down the street burnt down recently…….

How about improving or increasing the number of training courses and having a financial incentive to go on them – seeing as the end result should be a saving to the ACC. And if you have been charged in relation to a crash then there should be some compulsion to go on a course before you are allowed your licence back. Hard to enforce, but aim the training at the people who need it, not at everyone just because they ride a bike. Otherwise you will divide the biking community, if there is such a thing, which is the opposite of what is needed.

I diod say that our skills ON AVERAGE were bad.

What you have said there is exactly what I said below.

BUT: the kind of people that buy bikes, and then dont bother to take time out to learn how to control them but ride them at speed anyway (i.e the idiot types - like I was when younger) may STILL not feel like they NEED to attend such courses. "too much hassle, I am a good rider anwyay, dont have time, etc" - same excuses apply.

Who knows, who is to say that you are perhaps not a bad rider that think he is a good rider? How do you know without having some sort of objective evaluation? The fact that you have ridden for years without an off, is indicative, but not neccessarily proof of it. It may just have been blind luck?

I am not trying to be offensive- I am just trying to get the point across saying that most riders just dont have any evaluation process, or test of serious skills. If you dont have some doubts or believe that your riding can be improved, then you probably have the wrong attitude.

And good track skills may not necessarily relate to good road skills (for eg if the rider is aggressive and non-defensive, but can corner with knee down). Because good road skills are also about a defensive riding attitude - something that can only be ingrained in us by training and re-training.

[dipshit]

Who knows, who is to say that you are perhaps not a bad rider that think he is a good rider? How do you know without having some sort of objective evaluation? The fact that you have ridden for years without an off, is indicative, but not neccessarily proof of it. It may just have been blind luck?

This reminds me of that 'Ride for Ever' DVD ( http://www.rideforever.co.nz ) that was getting around a while ago. The 3 riders all rated themselves as pretty good, above-average etc, but analysing footage of their riding still showed them to have some bad habits and were all doing stupid things.

I am not trying to be offensive- I am just trying to get the point across saying that most riders just dont have any evaluation process, or test of serious skills. If you dont have some doubts or believe that your riding can be improved, then you probably have the wrong attitude.

That is a very relevant point. Being your own worst critic and having the ability to view yourself from the perspective of other road users goes a long way.

This is why I believe that even motorcyclists losing the attitude that most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers and our shit doesn't stink, is in itself something that may reduce the number of motorcyclists having accidents. A rider is more likely to look at their own riding behaviour/habits instead of thinking the problem doesn't lie with themselves.

[Berries]

Who knows, who is to say that you are perhaps not a bad rider that think he is a good rider? How do you know without having some sort of objective evaluation? The fact that you have ridden for years without an off, is indicative, but not neccessarily proof of it. It may just have been blind luck?

You are probably right. I was young once and did quite a few things I wouldn't contemplate now, and lost a few friends on the way. Age and responsibility has slowed me down, but probably not as much as some would like. Was trying hard not to write that post and come across as a big headed know it all twat. I do my best to keep out of trouble, but am very aware that by getting my kicks on a bike I may run out of road (or luck) at some point.

I am not trying to be offensive- I am just trying to get the point across saying that most riders just dont have any evaluation process, or test of serious skills. If you dont have some doubts or believe that your riding can be improved, then you probably have the wrong attitude.

Not sure that it correlates with having the wrong attitude, but then it's my attitude that makes me say that, which is probably the wrong type.

And good track skills may not necessarily relate to good road skills (for eg if the rider is aggressive and non-defensive, but can corner with knee down). Because good road skills are also about a defensive riding attitude - something that can only be ingrained in us by training and re-training.

Agree, defensive riding is the key to it all, together with hazard perception. I would recommend everyone do an advanced driving or riding course. I've only been on a track once, test riding an FZR600 at Manfeild. All that did was make me ride like a maniac back to Wellington. Some track skills are no doubt transferable, but you have to learn on the road to cope with all the things you don't get on a track, because they'll be the ones to get you. My only issue is with regular training and re-training, but perhaps that is because of the industry I am in and the fact that the results of a crash are often forefront in my mind. This does tend to make you ride defensively.

This is why I believe that even motorcyclists losing the attitude that most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers and our shit doesn't stink, is in itself something that may reduce the number of motorcyclists having accidents. A rider is more likely to look at their own riding behaviour/habits instead of thinking the problem doesn't lie with themselves.

Couldn't agree more.

[DEVVIL]

I'd suggest that there's been a widespread change in attitude towards drink driving.

I can't see why something similar couldn't be achieved in motorcycling.

Call it BADD

[Berries]

Get Rouge Rider to start a poll. That'll sort it.

[Katman]

Get Rouge Rider to start a poll. That'll sort it.

If not, at least it will give him a rosy complexion.

[caseye]

If not, at least it will give him a rosy complexion.

I've heard tell that he's a bit of a rogue actually! LOl. Butt seriously, motorists( all of em) need to own thier limitations and do something about them.
I note that of the eight people appointed to the ACC's ring funded expenditure board 7 are Riders, that has to be a good start.