Are they really out to kill us?

[spacemonkey]

I think that one gives us far greater scope to share the road amicably.

When in doubt whip ya fluro out???

[Katman]

When in doubt whip ya fluro out???

I'll settle for compensating for drivers inabilities by increasing my own awareness.

[spacemonkey]

So essentially just the original phrase you hate minus the hyperbole is what that sounds like.

[Katman]

So essentially just the original phrase you hate minus the hyperbole is what that sounds like.

It's not so much the phrase that bothers me but rather the attitude that it engenders towards the way we look upon the others we get to share the road with.

Some of us give a wave of thanks to car drivers who move over to let us pass - others simply think "that's right you fucking cager, get the fuck out of my way".

It's not hard to figure out which attitude is going to serve us better in the long run.

[Urano]

The idea that "they're out to kill us" is what produces the "fucking cagers" attitude that leads to the animosity that is adding to the risks that we face on the road.

actually, i've got the "fuckin cagers" attitude even when i'm on a cage...


no, truly, i can agree with the sense of your post, and in a perfect world i'd lead a standing ovation for that...

but...

there are three problems, in my opinion.

the first is concerning the ability. driving licenses are (here in italy at least) given without any real proof of capacity to drive the car. the most difficult and terrifying part of the exams, the one that you can hear youths complain about, is often the "S park". "the examiner asked me an s park! what a bastard! i've been lucky and i did it...!"
nothing about an emergency brakin, an obstacle pass within a turn, nothing about night driving...
the consequence is that the most of the drivers have little to very low driving capacity, that get scared about the abs pumping on the pedal, that leave the wheel when scared, that don't actually know where to look to search others on the road.
this is true for motorcyclist too, obviously.
but biker have then a forced improvement, due to two factor: the darwinian factor and the passion factor.
darwin comes in because biker with little to no riding capacity often will die, and so it comes clear that those who will survive are often better (and luckier) drivers.
the passion comes in because a bike is rarely a simple "transport" as on the other side the car is often. the bike is something more, is something that push you to be better on the road, to ride better, to improve, to read, to learn, to go to the track to test your capacity, to enlist in a riding school to get tips and advices...
how many corolla or kia drivers do you know who have been to a track day to improve their driving techniques?

the second concerns the upmentioned darwinian factor.
bikers with less capacity happens that die, we said. but unfortunately pretty frequently the normally talented biker will die too, or the good rider that have the bad fate to meet a little to no driving capacity cager.
this happens simply because in the event of a crash car-to-bike we are the weak part, and rarely a cager would pay with life his error of passing over a innocent biker...
so they'll always be "the ones that kill us", and this is not so useful for the respect thing...

the last is that a lot of cagers envy the possibilities of a bike: to filter queue, to find parking next to the entrance, to pay not the parking ticket, or, simply, to be fun, always forgetting about the ice and the showers in winter and the sweat and bees in the helmet during summer...
so we'll always be "those bastards that do whatever they want on the road"...

i agree with you on one point: we can do more to be respected and appreciated leaving stupid and annoying habits behind...

[Katman]

so they'll always be "the ones that kill us", and this is not so useful for the respect thing...

I agree that sometimes car drivers are "the ones that kill us" but.........

Considering the number of car drivers out there, the number that are actually killing us is very small. And of that number the ones that are killing us intentionally is even smaller.

the last is that a lot of cagers envy the possibilities of a bike: to filter queue, to find parking next to the entrance, to pay not the parking ticket, or, simply, to be fun, always forgetting about the ice and the showers in winter and the sweat and bees in the helmet during summer...
so we'll always be "those bastards that do whatever they want on the road"...

While there definately is a number of car drivers out there who dislike motorcyclists intensely I don't believe for a second that the reason has anything to do with jealously. It is far more likely to stem from (a) the manner in which they have witnessed us treating the road (b) the number of times that they have had to take evasive action to avoid our stupidity and (c) the damage we do to their cars from the likes of inconsiderate lane-splitting..

[Berries]

I wonder whether the mantra "treat every driver like they're out to kill you" is holding us back.

A more harmonious relationship between everyone on the road would work heavily in our favour and could be helped into fruition by looking at car drivers as more than just "fucking cagers".

I think that treating every driver as if they are out to kill you is a good riding, or even driving, philosophy. Assume they are going to do the unexpected, ride accordingly, and you're more likely to get home in one piece. Defensive riding is all it comes down to. Most of the time that something unexpected happens it isn't on purpose, they aren't actually trying to kill you, but they make a mistake or just don't see you. That is the reality of being on a bike.

As for "fucking cagers" I think that's just a KB term. If you ride around with that attitude then you aren't going to enjoy your trip and in my view that aggressive trait is going to see you more likely to become involved in something unpleasant. You reap what you sow.

[Katman]

Assume they are going to do the unexpected, ride accordingly,

Isn't this ^ sufficient though?

[Katman]

The concept that drivers are out to kill us is the seed of animosity that grows until it inevitably spills over into the motorcyclist over-reacting aggressively towards a car driver's genuine mistake - because in their own mind, that mistake just reinforces the idea that the car drivers actions were intentional.

It's not like we don't ever make genuine mistakes ourselves.

[jellywrestler]

One of the problems out there is as motorcyclists we are more aware of what's going on around especially when we are out for a ride for a rides sake; concentrating on riding and enjoying the moment.
Most people in cars are going from A to B. they're not interested in driving they have to do it and often have other distractions both physical in their cars, kids radio food etc, and in their head which in their world is getting more attention than driving. Riders as mentioned are mostly applying all of their headspace on the job at hand and simply fail to judge that motorists are not up to their level of concentration and awareness, a dangerous assumption....

[Spearfish]

The concept that drivers are out to kill us is the seed of animosity that grows until it inevitably spills over into the motorcyclist over-reacting aggressively towards a car driver's genuine mistake.

It's not like we don't ever make genuine mistakes ourselves.

I mentioned a rider of a motard style bike some time ago carving up traffic and tapping on roofs...
one intersection he was filtering through parked cars at 60+kph and got the green two cars from the front so he gunned it, the cars on a free left turn that would normally have plenty of time were suddenly in the path of a bike at 80+kph (50kph zone) so a big swerve by the car bigger serve by the bike into oncoming traffic causing them to swerve, a big compounding mess, to finish the event he tapped the roof of second oncoming car gave them the fingers and buggered off.
It detrimentally changed my commute to the point of getting subtle retaliation with cars closing gaps at lights that would normally be either left open or even made larger. If I see them give me room they get a wave, simple shyt really.
None of the motard riding was remotely normal neither was the retaliation but if I hadn't seen the rider I could have assumed the cagers are out to "get me" because of -- fill in what ever here here-- but its sorted given some time.

[R-Soul]

Isn't this ^ sufficient though?

I agree with your pont that making them out to be hunter-killer types can only create a belligerent environment where mutual respect (yes us respecting them too - even if its just because they are bigger than us) is probably not going to happen.

Perhaps the saying should be:

Cage drivers are:
- blinded by blind spots on their cars
- criminally unaware of their surroundings (most of the time) ,
- largely inexperienced
- prone to mistakes
- largely selfish in what they are doing.

Any more?

[Spearfish]

I agree with your pont that making them out to be hunter-killer types can only create a belligerent environment where mutual respect (yes us respecting them too - even if its just because they are bigger than us) is probably not going to happen.

Perhaps the saying should be:

Cage drivers are:
- blinded by blind spots on their cars
- criminally unaware of their surroundings (most of the time) ,
- largely inexperienced
- prone to mistakes
- largely selfish in what they are doing.

Any more?

Communists

[Katman]

Perhaps the saying should be:

Cage drivers are:
- blinded by blind spots on their cars
- criminally unaware of their surroundings (most of the time) ,
- largely inexperienced
- prone to mistakes
- largely selfish in what they are doing.

Any more?

Sorry but, apart from the first one, those sayings could equally apply to motorcyclists.

[Ronin]

Had an interesting conversation with Foxzee about this the other night. How many of us have missed seeing a bike when driving a car? I know I have.

I don't assume all cagers are out to kill me but I do assume they haven't seen me and do all that I can to make it easy for them to do so. Still there are times when they don't.

For the record, I always toot and wave to acknowledge someone that has moved over to let me pass.