Who causes the most crashes?

[bogan]

Absolutely, and that's my argument. Katman et al are convinced that bike riders are the problem, whereas I believe they are merely part of the problem, and that trying to say "bike riders are mostly at fault" is as futile as saying "car drivers are mostly at fault'. If we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we need to look at all the factors at play and stop trying to assign blame.

bollocks, if we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we have to fix the factors at play, looking at em requires you assign blame in order to get the most common cause etc. And regardless of what looking at them turns up we are the easiest to change, we are the minority (so most likely to be forced to change), and we stand to gain the most by riding better.

[shrub]

bollocks, if we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we have to fix the factors at play, looking at em requires you assign blame in order to get the most common cause etc. And regardless of what looking at them turns up we are the easiest to change, we are the minority (so most likely to be forced to change), and we stand to gain the most by riding better.

Good point, but how do we ride better? And my position is not that we shouldn't avoid looking at the cause, but rather that we should recognise that for most crashes there are in fact a cluster of causes and that we need to address all of them, iespecially rider skill and attitude. I have managed to avoid hurting myself or my bike since 1984 because I've picked up a few tricks over the years, but I'm lucky.

A good example happened a few months ago. I was following an SUV down a suburban street and it slowed down unexpectedly. The logical thing to do would have been to overtake, but I know that even though SUVs are a little hard to control they don't just change speed for no reason, so I dropped back. Sure enough the blonde bob driver turned right into the driveway she was looking for without indicating. If I had been passing I would have been under her wheels, and it would have been her fault for failing to indicate. Or would it have been my fault for not knowing that people do stupid shit when they're on the road? I think the crash would have been caused by the driver failing to indicate and me not having the smarts to know cars don't just slow down by themselves. A combination of factors were at play that in another situation would have been a crash.

Ultimately my safety was decided by my experience, but I don't take credit for that and we can't impose experience. When my son started riding he had several offs that were all the fault of another road user and one that was entirely his own silly fault, and he learned from them. Was it his "fault" that he didn't know people do stupid shit?

[Tunahunter]

So who causes the most crashes? Car drivers? Mad bike riders? Dodgy roads? Or is the blame for bike crashes something that can be attributed to all of the factors?

Its kinda obvious eh?

[Katman]

Good point, but how do we ride better? And my position is not that we shouldn't avoid looking at the cause, but rather that we should recognise that for most crashes there are in fact a cluster of causes and that we need to address all of them, including rider skill and attitude.

And I have always said that if we are seen to be seriously addressing our contribution towards motorcycle accidents then we may have far greater success in getting the other issues (such as roading problems) addressed.

[Virago]

I hardly think a poll on KB could be called scientific. If I'm looking for any result it's to counter your argument from another thread that most motorcyclists think car drivers are the problem, and that the polling is reasonably evenly split between motorcyclists only and a range of causes suggests you were wrong, and in fact most of us take responsibility and are not idiots.

If you do a search, you'll find that this has been covered ad nauseum on KB.

The basic statistics are (roughly):

- 35% of motorcycle accidents are the result of the biker falling off by themselves - no-one else involved or to blame.

- 35% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the car driver.

- 30% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the biker.

The big mistake is to compare the last two percentages, and declare that "cars cause most accidents". In actual fact, bikers are responsible for 65% of the total - roughly two-thirds.

[bogan]

Good point, but how do we ride better? And my position is not that we shouldn't avoid looking at the cause, but rather that we should recognise that for most crashes there are in fact a cluster of causes and that we need to address all of them, including rider skill and attitude.

how, training and change in attitudes will go a long way. Your position was obvious by your leading poll options, if you are comparing dominant causes you can't have an option that isencompasses the others, as it will always be applicable in more situations and thus invalidate the poll.

[MSTRS:Me]

If you do a search, you'll find that this has been covered ad nauseum on KB.

The basic statistics are (roughly):

- 35% of motorcycle accidents are the result of the biker falling off by themselves - no-one else involved or to blame.

- 35% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the car driver.

- 30% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the biker.

The big mistake is to compare the last two percentages, and declare that "cars cause most accidents". In actual fact, bikers are responsible for 65% of the total - roughly two-thirds.

Apply the same 'stats' to cars...
In this instance, car vs bike is relatively rare, therefore roughly 95% of all accident types involving cars are the fault of the driver (of at least one of those cars).
Motorcycle stats look bad, since we don't walk away so readily. We can improve that by riding defensively and wearing appropriate gear. Car drivers could also improve dramatically, by being more observant amongst other things.

As I said earlier, people cause crashes.

[shrub]

how, training and change in attitudes will go a long way. Your position was obvious by your leading poll options, if you are comparing dominant causes you can't have an option that isencompasses the others, as it will always be applicable in more situations and thus invalidate the poll.

If this was a scientific survey, yes, you're absolutely right. I think if anything I wanted to discount the belief that motorcyclists blame everyone else, which I have done, and maybe I shouldn't have had the fourth option, but I put it in because I am convinced that motorcycle safety is a complex issue that cannot be given one prevailing cause.

I agree about training and attitudes though, but how do we do that? I have done several advanced courses over the last few years, and every one of them has majored on teaching me how to ride round corners faster. How the hell is that making me better equipped for traffic, shitty roads, tiredness etc?

Attitudes are even harder to change because motorcyclists are notoriously individualistic and rebellious - if we weren't we'd all drive Priuses, and there is an entrenched culture where riding the Akaroa GP at 398 kmh is a goal to aspire to, and being overtaken is a slight on one's manhood.

[Katman]

If this was a scientific survey, yes, you're absolutely right. I think if anything I wanted to discount the belief that motorcyclists blame everyone else,

I would suggest that if you had posted the same poll back in October when the ACC issue first blew up, the results would have been very different.

Far from being upset that you have 'proven me wrong' I'm gaining great heart from the way the poll is currently standing. (And if you hadn't included the pathetic fourth opinion it would be looking even better).

[bogan]

If this was a scientific survey, yes, you're absolutely right. I think if anything I wanted to discount the belief that motorcyclists blame everyone else, which I have done, and maybe I shouldn't have had the fourth option, but I put it in because I am convinced that motorcycle safety is a complex issue that cannot be given one prevailing cause.

I agree about training and attitudes though, but how do we do that? I have done several advanced courses over the last few years, and every one of them has majored on teaching me how to ride round corners faster. How the hell is that making me better equipped for traffic, shitty roads, tiredness etc?

Attitudes are even harder to change because motorcyclists are notoriously individualistic and rebellious - if we weren't we'd all drive Priuses, and there is an entrenched culture where riding the Akaroa GP at 398 kmh is a goal to aspire to, and being overtaken is a slight on one's manhood.

still seems leading, why not a poll with our fault vs somebody else fault then?

never been to a training day myself, but focusing on emergency braking, and emergency evasion would be a good idea, and probably not too difficult to teach either.

Thats a common misconception, bikers are just normal people who love to ride, those you listed are the 1%ers, though it could be as much as 10%ers at times.

[SMOKEU]

One of the main reasons why the roads are so dangerous in NZ is because of the shocking state of our roads in comparison to other developed countries.

[shrub]

still seems leading, why not a poll with our fault vs somebody else fault then?

never been to a training day myself, but focusing on emergency braking, and emergency evasion would be a good idea, and probably not too difficult to teach either.

Thats a common misconception, bikers are just normal people who love to ride, those you listed are the 1%ers, though it could be as much as 10%ers at times.

I'm not sure that's going to tell us anything because fault is not a binary. The results show that a significant percentage of poll participants agree that there is no one dominant "fault", and that all the factors are at play.

[Katman]

The results show that a significant percentage of poll participants agree that there is no one dominant "fault", and that all the factors are at play.

Like I said - a straw to clutch at.

[dipshit]

Good point, but how do we ride better?

By not riding around with our heads up our own arse thinking our shit doesn't stink and everything is always someone else's fault... for a start.

[bogan]

I'm not sure that's going to tell us anything because fault is not a binary. The results show that a significant percentage of poll participants agree that there is no one dominant "fault", and that all the factors are at play.

It is true fault is not a binary, but you coud have done percentage options and averaged them, ie 100% biker fault, 40% biker fault etc, which would answer your question. As it is it's still leading, you have more answer groups than your question needs, and these groups overlap the answers you need. So you can't actually answer the question you want to know.