wet paint..

[bugjuice]

Stay off the paint...

it's not always an option. You can ride everywhere without touching a single bit of white lining?

Manhole covers. You can ride and avoid virtually every manhole cover in the wet. Give ya that.. but paint, nope..

I'l find the time to write something this weekend and post it up. Do you think in this modern day of technology, an email is acceptable, or should it still be snail mail?

There's a new ad campaign on TV at the moment, saying 'they' are doing their bit to make the roads safer (shows a road works sign, and the words underneath 'Dangerous bend ahead' then the little dude smacks the 'Dangerous' bit off the sign), so now might be a good time to start kicking up a small stink and see what happens.

It's unrealistic to think that they will repaint every surface around, that's a bit ott, but as long as they start to use the right stuff from now onwards, then it's a start

[FlyingDutchMan]

Isn't there some health & saftey thing saying "must take all reasonable steps to prevent injury" etc etc? I recon that using grippy paint on roads is a reasonable step.

[XP@]

Well, it's friday lunch time again... so i decided to google it a little bit...
this is one technical subject!

I have not been able to locate any evidence of antiskid testing for road marking paint. A comparison of antiskid propreties for different paint/aggrigate mixes would be interesting. This could be overlaid with the durability (as tested on the paint trails dotted throuought the country).

the best i could come up with is:
http://www.highwaysmaintenance.com/Markdata.html

and a quote from the Oxfordshire Draft Highway maintenace policy:

Skid resistance measurements of road markings shall also be carried out at Critical sites (25% of identified sites to be surveyed annually, on a continuous 4 year cycle).

and a question posed to the European Commisson, it is not a bad answer but euro dollars still rule over lives. Not that I would recommend NZ adopted every european rule...

Current standards are too infrequent. Problems also arise with pitch, which is used to make minor repairs to road surfaces. However, in rainy conditions, pitch becomes very slippery. Motorcycles skid very easily on such surfaces, and the braking distance becomes longer. In addition, the material used is not longlasting. There are, nevertheless, road repair products which are safer and which last longer.

Is the Commission aware of these problems?

What measures is the Commission taking to prevent slippery road surfaces and road markings?

Does the Commission have any information about alternatives to conventional paints used for road markings, and what is its opinion thereof?

Answer given by Mrs de Palacio on behalf of the Commission (27 May 2003)

The Commission is very concerned about the dangerous condition of certain stretches of road and skid resistance is an important determinant for the level of safety of a road. However, it is to be recalled that the maintenance of roads including the proper use of road markings and pavements is the competence of Member States.
Upon mandate of the Commission, CEN (1) has adopted a standard on materials for road markings that provide a good grip even when the road is wet (norm EN 1423:1997
Road marking materials drop on
materials
Glass beads and anti-skid aggregates and mixtures of them). As to road bound pavements CEN/TC 227 is about to prepare a standard on products, which will be subject to CE marking on the basis of the Construction Products Directive (Council Directive 89/106/EEC of 21 December 1988 on the
approximation of laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States relating to construction products (2)) once the standard is adopted. The quality classes defined in these norms allow road authorities to procure much better performing materials than paint without such additives.
Once such markings and pavements are in place, their skid resistance needs to be controlled. At this point in time, each Member State uses one or two in a total of twelve different models of measuring devices for skid resistance. In an attempt to create safety conditions comparable between the different Member States, CEN group TC 227 WG 5 is developing a draft standard defining a uniform procedure to determine skid resistance from a dynamic measurement.

The Commission supports these activities though the research projects Format (maintenance of road pavements) and Silvia (low noise pavements), both of which were launched in 2002. In its work programme of 2003, the Commission has announced to submit to Parliament and Council a Directive on
black spot management and road safety audits. With such procedures in place, it is possible to identify sections of high risk and develop remedial measures in a cost effective way and target to safety critical sections on spots in the network.

(1) Committee European Normalisation.
(2) OJ L 40, 11.2.1989.

[XP@]

This is interesting... (year 1999)
http://www.nzrf.co.nz/spec_chlorinatedrubber.htm

shows primary choice is reflectivity,
and evidently skid resistance:

Although the lines gave a lower result than the adjacent seal, the difference between the two was 9-13 BPR (Refectorised/Non Reflectorised) on the waterborne test sites. The readings on Pakowhai were lower for both the seal and line, but the difference between the two remained the same and was due to the seal age.

Readings on the Alkyd markings also gave lower readings than the adjacent seal, but the differences were 19-22 BPR (Reflectorised/Non Reflectorised).

Since our testing, we believe that the difference between the seal and line readings was not a significant factor. The skid resistance is more reliant on the surface condition.

If you need to minimise the difference then your best option from our testing would be to use reflectorised waterborne lines.

[bugjuice]

wow, so to sum it up, they know about it, but they just want to talk some more.
brain fried.

Either way of how they look at the road surface or paint quality, they are in control of both, so fix one or the other, or both, surely? I know this isn't NZ, but as far as road conditions go.

The other point to bring in on a related matter, when it does rain, the road markings dissapear almost all together! The dark doesn't help, but I know they can't fix anything about the night sky at the moment. And roads that don't have cateyes inline, then it's just a guess at where to go..

thanks for looking that up..

[Wolf]

You can ride and avoid virtually every manhole cover in the wet. Give ya that.. but paint, nope..

I've been avoiding white paint as much as I can for years but there are places where the local council has gone mental and slathered the shit everywhere. I noted some intersections in the Auckland CBD where they marked every possible lane through the intersection - straight through, left and right turns. It did not look as though it is possible to turn at those intersections without encountering at least one white line marked at a tangent to your direction.

[Ixion]

I've been avoiding white paint as much as I can for years but there are places where the local council has gone mental and slathered the shit everywhere. I noted some intersections in the Auckland CBD where they marked every possible lane through the intersection - straight through, left and right turns. It did not look as though it is possible to turn at those intersections without encountering at least one white line marked at a tangent to your direction.

PLUS - as well as the arrows there are pedestrian crossing lines, the crossing diamonds, assorted other lines all compressed into one intersection.

[XP@]

Rep points for the best photo of the worst example of road paint use.

[Clockwork]

I can live with the lines, they are generally thin and the lost of grip is only momentary but I think authorities need to be more considerate when painting larger areas such a pedestrian crossings, words & arrows. Manhole covers are also a concern, as they are dark and even harder to see and frequently seem to be place on or around intersections.

It seems to me that LTSA/LTNZ have known about this issue for years and have and have demonstrated a complete unwillingness to address the it. I would have thought the most appropriate place to apply pressure would be the ACC. Injury prevention is a big part of their responsibilities AND they take enough money off motorcylists, perhapse its time we asked them to take the fight up for us.

[Racey Rider]

Would 'Bikers Rights NZ' be of any help to back us?

Once we prove were serious, the insurance council may help with documentation of numbers of accidents caused by the paint.

Once the insurance council is onside, ACC May consider thinking about the issue with us.

Maybe 'FairGo' would consider this issue as something a little different to air on their programme. Are we getting a fair go? 100 Transvesite ( wrong thread. I mean leather clad) bikers on government steps may make a good programe!

A "Hic'coy of Hope" biker style over the harbour bridge might be fun.

[bugjuice]

I had thought about going to insurance companies etc about claims due to skidding on paint, but I think the number of people who don't claim is far greater, therefore the number wouldn't be a very good representation of accidents caused by it.

Fair Go probably would do it as they love to stirr trouble etc, but that's a fair way off yet. We have to be fair ourselves and start at the beginning. We write a letter, we get a responce. If no, we write again but more firm and to the point. If still a no, then we write one more time and advise of our intentions (petitions, press, rides for protest etc etc) and see what the responce is. If still no, then we start having us some fun. But we have to be fair, else it'll just be a group of bikers stirring up crap, instead of a group of people trying to make NZ roads safer.

[justsomeguy]

I had thought about going to insurance companies etc about claims due to skidding on paint, but I think the number of people who don't claim is far greater, therefore the number wouldn't be a very good representation of accidents caused by it.

Fair Go probably would do it as they love to stirr trouble etc, but that's a fair way off yet. We have to be fair ourselves and start at the beginning. We write a letter, we get a responce. If no, we write again but more firm and to the point. If still a no, then we write one more time and advise of our intentions (petitions, press, rides for protest etc etc) and see what the responce is. If still no, then we start having us some fun. But we have to be fair, else it'll just be a group of bikers stirring up crap, instead of a group of people trying to make NZ roads safer.

I agree

[dhunt]

Stay off the paint...

Umm good idea. If ONLY YOU COULD.

Arrows sort of take up the whole lane. So not the easiest things to miss.

[Ixion]

Umm good idea. If ONLY YOU COULD.

Arrows sort of take up the whole lane. So not the easiest things to miss.

Particularly those ones that have a straight ahead arrow a left turn arrow and a right turn arrow all combined into one sort of trident shape. They fill the entire lane. You can't avoid it all you can do is try to cross it upright and not braking.

If I had bigger balls I'd try braking hard on one on the BMW, and see if the ABS can cope with it.

[XP@]

Ok,

The LTSA has a "2010 Road Safety Strategy" we would need to take this in to account. The Conclusion of submissions is to adopt a mixed approach to safety that is policing and improvments to road quality.

By leveraging this strategy and offering the re-specification of anti-skid properties of road paint and joining seal as a cost effective safety measure...

we could have a case and be able to get some money spent...

is there anything else we want whilst we are at it?