Education - What will it take?

[MaxB]

If we raise the bar on passing the driving test to make the roads 'safer' we must accept that a significant number of us will never be good enough to get a licence.

So far Govts. have been unwilling to deal with this for fear of upsetting the voters.

[DarkLord]

Fwiw start them all off on motorcycles,2 years minimum then they can move on to 4 wheels if so inclined,at the very least it will teach them a few road skills.

Yes, I agree, except it will never happen as has been stated.

I was driving cages before I became a biker and if you would have asked me to name hazards while I was driving (like they do in the full license test), I could have pointed out a few obvious ones at best.

Ask me now after a couple of years of riding and I could name a whole lot more. When I did my full bike test, the tester asked me if I could define any hazards I had seen on the route we had just done. My reply was "I'm a biker, everything is a hazard".

It would teach them some road skills and hopefully give them a bit more awareness as to what is really happening around them when they drive. It can be very easy to tune out completely while driving a car, where as with riding a bike, after a bit of experience you tend to find it is more ingrained into your thinking to be more aware of your surroundings.

[davereid]

I've been reading a lot over the years about what the gubbermint needs to do to educate drivers to make the roads safer. I work in enforcement, and people frequently tell me that there should be more effort given to education. Normally when I'm giving them enforcement, specifically.

Ironically, when I ask them what education they have bought themselves, they almost always think it's other people who need to education.

Anyway, that aside, what do you think is needed in terms of education? I almost think I am asking for two separate answers i.e.

What education should we give to other people?, and
What education do you think you need yourself?

Is advertising education e.g. the ads on telly. The newspaper ads telling us that the faster we go the bigger the risk. Is that education?

So, tell me what education is, coz until we can actually define it, it just ain't gonna happen.

Bring it on..............

Another rider died yesterday in Taranaki, when a ute turned right across his path. I am pre supposing alcohol and drugs were not a factor.

The driver of the ute will live with that for the rest of his life. No amount of increased enforcement, or training will stop that kind of accident, but I am sure that particular driver will never turn across the path of another vehicle again.

Headlights on may help, but trains are big, bright yellow, and they have headlights on, yet cars still cross in front of them.

This is one area that education, by way of advertising can help. Like trains, motorcycles are there to be seen. For some reason, drivers just don't see bikes. I'd suggest a campaign about looking for bikes. Old hat, but I guess its been done before, as we have noticed the problem for years.

I don't think advertising can help motorcyclists get around corners, or stop in an emergency without falling off.

This is where we need to offer training.

Not balls out race day stuff. A day where you can just rock in on your Harley or Honda, and spend a few hours casually practising braking, and cornering techniques, with tuition from professionals. You can lead a horse to water, so there will be those who never attend. But targeting clubs, like Ulysses would work.

And we should set realistic targets as a measure of our success.
I guess that if we managed to get 30% of riders to a course every 5 years, and we managed to halve the rate at which they fall off under brakes, or take 20% off their emergency stopping distance, then we would have done pretty well.

If a cop who could ride like this offered me training, I would be there in a flash. I'd even get a rego sticker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ-pTyQZJng

[Pixie]

Government officials are philosophically opposed to driver/rider education and training. They believe that it makes drivers/riders "overconfident". I have heard them say such in as many words. I kid you not.

Yes,I have heard this many times.On one occasion voiced by Dave Cliff,the then head of road policing.

The TV ads are intended to work against gaining confidence,e.g. frighten the plebs into being scared on the road.

[Pixie]

There is education already available. Driving schools deliver it.

So if we all want more education, why don't we just go and buy it?

Just trying to get some thoughts running here, as I'm worried that it's basically a dead duck, trying to get people to educate themselves.

Whoops, that's right, it's OP that needs education. Yes, OP. Other people.

Current NZ training consists of teaching to pass the test.
Not teaching to be a safe driver.

[Pixie]

I agree 100% with the guy above. I took driving lessons with a qualified instructor shortly after turning 17. I'd already been riding a restored 1974 Garelli Tiger on a CBT (Compulsory Basic Training - which trains you on using round abouts, when and how to indicate, lane discipline and all the fundamental stuff) whilst i was 16 and had had good road positioning, blind spot checking, forward planning (reading the road) etc hammered into by my Dad before i started learning in a car. I learnt 10 times more useful and extremely important stuff from my instructor too. Without which i wouldn't have stood a chance of passing my test. In which i got 5 minor faults i think - mostly due to not checking my mirrors often enough (every few seconds - he times you) and letting my speed pick up too much when coasting down a hill. You have to learn about 8 advanced maneuvers and you get tested on 3 random ones on the day (i think). I got; reverse around a corner, reverse park and parallel park. I'd had so much practice with my instructor that i nailed them. If you fail to do them perfectly you fail the whole test by the way. If you pass first time then you've done very well - alot of people don't.

I later took my bike test (after 9 lessons with another qualified instructor) which is similar in structure, only you have the guy following you on another bike, talking through an intercom. I had to do my test in Nottingham city centre traffic... I was shitting myself. Passing first time was important to me so i didnt want to fuck it up. Got three minors on that one - i cant remember why. But there are alot more 'life saver' glances into your blind spots and road position is very important - there's much more to learn and remember on the bike test. I also learned about target fixation and always looking where you want to end up when cornering.

You come out of the whole system fairly clued up.

This is why the NZ "Scratchy questions and cursory drive around the block" style of testing is allways doomed to failure.

[Banditbandit]

I'm not sure that education will solve the problem. (I work in education and don't see it as the solution to all the world's problems). I'm an educated driver/rider. I've done training courses in cars back last century - and done bike rider training as well. Many people, including enforcement people, consider that I ride in a dangerous manner - and quite likely, by many measures, I do. That's my concious choice.

Education aims to both give knowledge to people and to change behaviours. Driver education aimed at giving people the knowledge of how to drive/ride vehicles properly will not necessarily change the risky behaviours they indulge in. Educating people about the dangers of smoking has only partially reduced smoking rates. Smokers, myself included, make a conscious choice to continue smoking. Road rule breakers will continue to break the rules.

Teaching people to handle vehicles better will only make some of them driver faster - more riskily. Maybe they'll be safer at it, but the risk still exists.

What is needed is a massive culture change, so bad driving is not socially acceptable. The problem, of course, is who defines "bad driving" and I would argue that speed is not the only sign of bad driving. Now, culture change does not come about through law enforcement, nor through education. It might come about through the mass media propoganda system (advertising), which has to be much better and more targetted than it currently is. The "gotta do something about your drinking" and the anti-domestic violence ads are good examples of how targetted advertising might bring about social change.

But while the majority of New Zealanders do not see breaking the road laws in the same light as breaking other laws, that culture change is not going to happen.

[Number One]

My 2 cents.

It goes down to the driving test. It should be much more comprehensive and show how to take pride in road craft - practical. The current multichoice is a farce

The driving age is far too low

Plus the road rules are badly written, treating us in a somewhat officious patronising manner and stuck in the 1950's

Bigtime fines and disqs for things like running traffic lights, crossing centerlines, pulling out into oncomming traffic (so they have to brake)

Oopps went on a bit - the education would be the driving test part.

ha ha ha I concur with you on all the above and especially the bit aout the driving test part. I did my BHS at the same time as a friend...she was able to stall and drop the bike falling off it quite spectacularly (while doing her braking on light gravel test) YET she was walked away from the 'test' (term used lightly) with a wee certificate that said she had passed...yeah right

Thankfully she had the wisdom to realise she really wasn't ready to go anywhere near actual roads and spent another month or so trying to get it all sorted - in the end she gave up as she just couldn't seem to suss it. YET she was given license to go for it...someone less cautious might have just got out there and hammered around....Seems a bit off to me

[Clockwork]

I can remember a time when TV advertising space was used to pass on practical advice on safe and courteous driving.

I'd happily see a return of such advertising, No shock and horror, nothing that's likely to alienate the viewer just useful reminders such as how to:-
Use of and signaling at a traffic island.
Safely passing on the open road.
Keeping left and correct lane discipline.
Maintaining your speed on a passing lane if you are not passing.
Common road courtesy.

That sort of thing would be a start, maybe even enough to encourage people to think about the way the drive and treat other road users.


I'm sure

[bogan]

What is needed is a massive culture change, so bad driving is not socially acceptable. The problem, of course, is who defines "bad driving" and I would argue that speed is not the only sign of bad driving. Now, culture change does not come about through law enforcement, nor through education. It might come about through the mass media propoganda system (advertising), which has to be much better and more targetted than it currently is. The "gotta do something about your drinking" and the anti-domestic violence ads are good examples of how targetted advertising might bring about social change.

hasn't the smoking culture changed drastically cos everyone has been educated to the consequences?

[Banditbandit]

hasn't the smoking culture changed drastically cos everyone has been educated to the consequences?

To a certain degree it has. I'm not convinced it's all because everyone is educated about the consequences. I think advertising aimed at changing the image and decreasing the social acceptablity of smoking has had more effect than straight education about the consequences.

[avgas]

Compulsory skid pad days. Because morons can't ride/drive in rain.
Brief retests (5-10min) every 5 years for EVERYONE. Pass the test or else you have up to 1 week to pass. Otherwise your license is taken off you for 1 month.

[MSTRS:Me]

There is education already available. Driving schools deliver it.

So if we all want more education, why don't we just go and buy it?

Because there is no 'recognition' in the form of discounted rego/insurance/whatever. This country and it's people are $ driven. Few do anything they don't have to, if there is no gain in the pocket.
And as far as becoming a better driver and avoiding roadtax - well, you have to be caught being bad to get smacked.

[Banditbandit]

Because there is no 'recognition' in the form of discounted rego/insurance/whatever. This country and it's people are $ driven. Few do anything they don't have to, if there is no gain in the pocket.
And as far as becoming a better driver and avoiding roadtax - well, you have to be caught being bad to get smacked.

It was suggested that the ACC levy be linked to driver training - lower fees if you did driver training - this was totally rejected.

[bogan]

To a certain degree it has. I'm not convinced it's all because everyone is educated about the consequences. I think advertising aimed at changing the image and decreasing the social acceptablity of smoking has had more effect than straight education about the consequences.

true, but would we have allowed the advertising to change the image if we didn't know smoking is bad for you?