Just in case you didn't think you were a second class citizen...

[scumdog]

My protest...I went through every pocket on my person and my pack, before prducing my licence. I knew where it was all the time, I just wanted to waste his time, as he had wasted mine.!

'waste his time'??

WTF, dya think he gets paid by the number of bikes he stops???

He's there for his shift - how long YOU hold him up is of no concern to him.

But if it made ya feel better......

[riffer]

Ok, I'll bite again.

Firstly, just because I'm a member of BRONZ Executive, doesn't mean I speak for them on this site. I have the signature on my posts for transparency so you know my affiliation. So chill...

You want to pull me up on mentioning rights? And you think I'm saying you don't have any rights? Read my email again. Nowhere do I say you don't have any rights.

Maybe I've been a little obtuse. Let me explain. There are certain rights that people have. And they are generally tied to responsibilities. The point I've been making is that too many motorcyclists have drawn attention to themselves, and other motorcyclists due to a perceived lack of responsibility. Therefore (and we can argue until the cows come home about if it's warranted) motorcyclists have come to the attention of the Police and Government. So the Government's come up with an idea to charge up through the nose to pay for ACC claims. And the Police have come up with an idea to try and "shock" motorcyclists into stopping and thinking about what could happen.

So they take a picture? So what? Are you a descendant of some jungle tribe that thought that taking a picture stole your soul? What do you think they could possibly do with that picture? You talk about your "right" to not be stopped at all. It's pathetic. You have no idea of what rights are.

I don't really give a shit about if you don't like to get stopped for 30 seconds so they can keep drunks off the road or have a convo with you to make you think about how you are riding. But when you start bleating about violation of your rights you have no idea.

Find some real battles to fight. This isn't one of them.

And this is NOT a BRONZ sanctioned or inspired post. This is me talking.

[AD345]

cmon guys, it was one ill thought out statement by one member of the organisation, put the pitchforks away.

Sorry bud but if you're going to carry the (big) sign of your position in your signature then you'd better think about how what you say reflects on the organisation that you are promoting.

The same holds true for those of you in mag-nz. If you carry the banner then you represent the role each time you speak under it.

It's no secret that Ixion is the leader of Auckland Bronz but he doesn't post as that. He posts as an individual on here and thats how I (for one) read his posts.

If he had a big BRONZ decal in his signature proclaiming him as such then, rightly or wrongly, thats the party line.

Something for mag-nz to think about.

Perception is reality

[AD345]

Well that was serendiptitous timing

[AD345]

Ok, I'll bite again.

Firstly, just because I'm a member of BRONZ Executive, doesn't mean I speak for them on this site. I have the signature on my posts for transparency so you know my affiliation. So chill...

You want to pull me up on mentioning rights? And you think I'm saying you don't have any rights? Read my email again. Nowhere do I say you don't have any rights.

Maybe I've been a little obtuse. Let me explain. There are certain rights that people have. And they are generally tied to responsibilities. The point I've been making is that too many motorcyclists have drawn attention to themselves, and other motorcyclists due to a perceived lack of responsibility. Therefore (and we can argue until the cows come home about if it's warranted) motorcyclists have come to the attention of the Police and Government. So the Government's come up with an idea to charge up through the nose to pay for ACC claims. And the Police have come up with an idea to try and "shock" motorcyclists into stopping and thinking about what could happen.

So they take a picture? So what? Are you a descendant of some jungle tribe that thought that taking a picture stole your soul? What do you think they could possibly do with that picture? You talk about your "right" to not be stopped at all. It's pathetic. You have no idea of what rights are.

I don't really give a shit about if you don't like to get stopped for 30 seconds so they can keep drunks off the road or have a convo with you to make you think about how you are riding. But when you start bleating about violation of your rights you have no idea.

Find some real battles to fight. This isn't one of them.

And this is NOT a BRONZ sanctioned or inspired post. This is me talking.

I seriously suggest that you spend some quality time reading about constitusional law, the bill of rights, the magna carta and about 200 yers of parliamentary democracy..........just for a start.

because

you

have

no

fucking

clue

[riffer]

Perception is reality

Nope. Perception is merely what was said filtered through the morass of bias, experience and prejudice that everyone has.

There's no such thing as reality. Please keep to the subject.

[riffer]

you

have

no

fucking

clue

Point out the relevant case law that proves your case. Prove what is happening is illegal. Ad hominem does not an argument make.

[Swoop]

Looking at the stat's posted earlier in the thread, Friday appears more of a menace, but that wouldn't be D'aucklanders on their way to their batches though... The stat's would never lie.

If it makes for a quieter coro, then cool, its usually 50-50 I do it in the day or night anyway

Yup. It'll be interesting if they have to station a unit 24/7 on the loop. Those who take "alternative" times should present more of a challenge compared with the Sunday crew.

[R6_kid:Me]

I work for a company which employs nearly 40,000 people in one of the most dangerous occupations in the world. Only one person in the company died on the work site last year, that statistic wasn't achieved by refusing to be educated about safety. Of course in the eyes of the company, one death was one too many.

At first being anally retentive about safety like the company is seems like a hindrance, but after being here for a month and half I can see why they do it and how it does make a difference. Simple education surrounding some of the most mundane things has lead to a huge reduction in injuries. The thing is that once you embrace their initiatives and realise that you will be going home safe because of them it makes a lot of sense. Unlike suggested - being forcefed a safety conscious message hasn't turned everyone against being informed, it's been embraced and grown.

If we as motorcyclists adopted the three main initiatives in place out here I think the same results would show in fatality and injury statistics for motorcyclists. I think it's good to see that the money is being spent, they can't make you show up to a public meeting if you don't want to, but by stopping you in a high motorcycle traffic area they are able to make you aware of hazards and things you might otherwise not have been aware of - and even you were, you can bet that some numpty out there on a bike wasn't.

Sure, cage drivers also need a fair bit of extra training too. But the stats aren't going to change, even f you don't trust them, however if the real world data improves then they'll have to start charging us less - more of us survive and make it home safely to our loved ones and everyone is happier.

[Squiggles]

What an interesting question. Unless I am holding a number up under my face, and have a heap of black indian ink on my fingers, I dont expect that the police will EVER take my picture. In fact it might be fair to say I would take exception if they tried, I dont believe that there is a law that allows pictures of me to be taken by police randomly at a roadside stop and just for the hell of it.

The Privacy Commissioner may well be a starter for the answer to if they can gather our photographs just because we ride motorcycles, the Police Commissioner sounds like an excellent first port of call for a letter, along with the Minister of Police.

I suspect the pictures (if any are taken) might be used to try and identify hoons. I'd be in favour of this over chasing them...

[scracha]

e. Let me explain. There are certain rights that people have. And they are generally tied to responsibilities. The point I've been making is that too many motorcyclists have drawn attention to themselves, and other motorcyclists due to a perceived lack of responsibility. Therefore (and we can argue until the cows come home about if it's

So by this logic they could set up a road block south of Manakau and stop anyone with a brown face? Maybe all us immigrants with funny accents should be stopped too? You're basically quite happy for the cops to discriminate against a minority group. Pity the poor bastards on bikes who actually live and work in the Coro.

So they take a picture? So what? Are you a descendant of some jungle tribe that thought that taking a picture stole your soul? What do you think they could possibly do with that picture?

Is this before or after I bend over and let them search for drugs? Should I offer the nice policeman a fingerprint and DNA sample too? Consider that perhaps some of us simply don't want the cops to have a piccie of us and don't want to be treated like criminals.

Targeting law abiding motorists is simply sending out the wrong message. These ACC sponsored cop stops should be voluntary, with a free cup of coffee (did I mention doughnut?) and helmet wipe to go with the advice/lecture.

If we as motorcyclists adopted the three main initiatives in place out here I think the same results would show in fatality and injury statistics for motorcyclists. I think it's good to see that the money is being spent, they can't make you show up to a public meeting if you don't want to, but by stopping you in a high motorcycle traffic area they are able to make you aware of hazards and things you might otherwise not have been aware of - and even you were, you can bet that some numpty out there on a bike wasn't.

So improve the motorcycle test. Subsidise training days. Send driving offenders off to training courses. Put some riding advice in motorcycle magazines and websites (hey...Kiwibiker). Perhaps a pamphlet with riding advice in the same envelope as our rego renewal letter. We're not all born again Sunday warriors and I don't particularly want nor need some ACC sponsored copper to pull me over every week because I've had the audacity to visit a mate in the Coro on a motorcycle.

Maybe the following week they could stop all the "boaties" going up the Coro and tell them they really should learn to drive around tight blind corners on their own side of the road. Can't see it happening though. Imagine the outcry in the AA magazine.

[Squiggles]

So by this logic they could set up a road block south of Manakau and stop anyone with a brown face? Maybe all us immigrants with funny accents should be stopped too? You're basically quite happy for the cops to discriminate against a minority group.

edit: that didnt come out right damn skim reading

So improve the motorcycle test. Subsidise training days. Send driving offenders off to training courses. Put some riding advice in motorcycle magazines and websites (hey...Kiwibiker). Perhaps a pamphlet with riding advice in the same envelope as our rego renewal letter.

Passing this one on to my contacts in ACC & NZTA, tis too easy not to. Some might complain they're being targetted though?

[scracha]

How ironic, the reason they are scruitenising riders more closely is our abysmal safety record on the coro, the reason they'd pick brown people... well, we can only assume what you'd be meaning

I was trying to point out that stereotyping is wrong, but if we're talking safety and a reason to stop one group of drivers, try reading the drink drive statistics pertaining to Maori in proportion to the rest of the population. Should we allow cops to stop all of them? Of course not. You can't target everyone with the same brush. All you end up doing is create a "them and us" attitude. Educate and reward should be tried before discipline and punishment.

[riffer]

You're basically quite happy for the cops to discriminate against a minority group. Pity the poor bastards on bikes who actually live and work in the Coro.

It's not about being happy with it dude. It's about picking battles. A 30 second stop for a chat is a minor thing. I've been stopped on Paekakariki Hill when they were doing the same thing and it didn't piss me off. If you work in the Coro you'll likely be stopped once. Have a chat, go on your way. As I said, pick your battles. The omitted part of your post I haven't quoted I won't even bother commenting on because it's specious.

Is this before or after I bend over and let them search for drugs? Should I offer the nice policeman a fingerprint and DNA sample too?

{puts BRONZ hat on...}

From the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 No 116 Section 18 Subsection 2:-

Where any constable has reasonable ground for believing that there is in or on any building, aircraft, ship, hovercraft, carriage, vehicle, premises, or place any controlled drug specified or described in Schedule 1 or in Part 1 of Schedule 2 or in Part 1 of Schedule 3 or any precursor substance specified or described in Part 3 of Schedule 4 and that an offence against this Act has been or is suspected of having been committed in respect of that drug or precursor substance, he, and any assistants who accompany him, may enter and search the building, aircraft, ship, hovercraft, carriage, vehicle, premises, or place and any person found therein or thereon as if authorised to do so by a search warrant issued under section 198 of the Summary Proceedings Act 1957 and by subsection (1).

They cannot demand a fingerprint or DNA sample from you unless you have been arrested and charged - however they can ask you to volunteer one.

Consider that perhaps some of us simply don't want the cops to have a piccie of us and don't want to be treated like criminals.

I must admit to being a little perturbed about the photographic aspect. While there is bountiful legislation giving Police power to photograph people once arrested I cannot find the relevant legislation that gives them the right to photograph people without arresting this. You have raised an interesting point here and it is something that I WILL discuss with my fellow BRONZ members. This may be something worth looking into, and depending on the results of this I will be willing to concede my former opinion on this.

Targeting law abiding motorists is simply sending out the wrong message. These ACC sponsored cop stops should be voluntary, with a free cup of coffee (did I mention doughnut?) and helmet wipe to go with the advice/lecture.

I can totally see where you are coming from here. The coffee and helmet wipe is a fantastic idea and I''ll pass along your suggestions to those in BRONZ who have the ear of ACC via the MSL committee. I'm not sure on the doughnuts - I'm not sure we could trust the Police around those. At the end of the day I believe they are actually trying to do the right thing here (as believe it or not, so am I) and it's entirely possible it's coming across completely the wrong way. But rather than completely blast those trying to make a difference, instead let's look at what works, and what doesn't and give the feedback back to ACC and Police, and see if there's a way to revise what's happening so that motorcyclists aren't turned off, and start hearing the message they're trying to say.

{takes BRONZ hat off}

I WANT my ACC levy to go down. I don't want my riding curtailed. And I certainly don't want a tiny minority of idiots to ruin it for all of us. And sometimes I will get very passionate about it. Sorry if I offended anyone - I was merely trying to get some people to understand that we can't just bleat on about rights because TPTB basically don't CARE about our rights- we ARE a minority - and as such we will get trampled on by the needs of the majority. It sucks but that's life. I don't view what they're doing as particularly Machiavellian (the picture taking notwithstanding) but I am curious to know more.

Can someone PM me some more information and evidence of what they're doing?

[puddytat]

Can you refuse to take your helmet off? Or will they arrest you & make you take it off at the station for the picture?
Oooh I now see that the fella above is looking into this.....
Kinda glad I do it only on the track now, what with one thing & another