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Thread: Interesting. A mystery explained. 'twas counter steering all the time.

  1. #1
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    Interesting. A mystery explained. 'twas counter steering all the time.

    For the last few weeks I have been attempting to actually analyse what happens when I corner . Not the "shit oh shit, I'm gonna die" bit, but the actual physics of the bike.

    And I think I have an explananation of an old mystery

    Many will recall the surveys that indicated that most riders felt more comfortable with left hand corners than right handers. Even in the States, which eliminated camber etc as a reason. Which was puzzling - why were left handers preferred to right handers, which are actually safer ?

    Now I have found, that when going round left handers, I totally subconciously and without realising I'm doing it, often gently countersteer.

    On a corner, my left hand is on the bars in such a way that the palm of my hand is along the rear of the bar (ie my wrist is pointed down) . And what happens is that I apply an initial lean based on what the corner looks like. But if it turns out to be a bit sharper, or tightening, on a LEFT hander I push on the left bar to countersteer (NB I didn't realise I was doing this, it is completely sub conscious and automatic). Which of course tightens up my line.

    But I DON'T do the equivalent on right handers. The reason being, that at the beginning of a corner I usually have the throttle backed well off (cos I've just finished braking, and I'm just holding a steady throttle until the apex). This means that my wrist is actually pointing up. If it weren't when I wrap on the throttle I'd either have to have double jointed wrists , or change the position of my hand on the twist grip.

    And because my wrist is pointing up only the thumb and the wrist-ward edge of the palm is behind the bar. And in that position it's not easy to push on the bar. Also pushing on the bar is more dificult because it's likely to make the throttle move .

    So on left handers I subconsciously apply countersteer to adjust for the corner. On right handers I don't which means that if I need to adjust in a right hander I have to do it by body movement or hanging off the bike etc, which is a lot more cumbersome than the automatic unrealised counter steering.

    This might also partly explain why bikers prefer uphill corners (twistgrip wrapped on, palm at back of bar) over down hills. Though I realise that some (most ? all?) of that is because of weight transfer to the front wheel.

    And since the Yanks weren't quite silly enough to move the twistgrip to the left hand side when they buggered up the gear lever and rear brake locations , the effect will, be the same for them .

    Which is why I (and perhaps others, including the Yanks) prefer left handers to right handers. Or part of it anyway.

    Anyone else notice this phenonomon (sp?). It's really hard to notice , you have to dissect what you are doing through the corner minutely (which is a bit dodgy, I'd normally prefer to actually pay attention to the corner itself! )

    I've tried to reposition my right hand further round the bar, but it's too uncomfortable on small throttle opening, and when closing the throttle to change gear. I'd have to move my whole arm and shoulder to get enough forward rotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  2. #2
    I think you are right there - I like to keep my throttle hand light because I do some fine adjustments in the corner....another reason the flattrackers and speedway bikes go anticlock? It's most important off road to set the bike up so the bars are unweighted when standing for this same reason,you can't have throttle control if most of your time is spent hanging on tight.

    I wonder what the Indian riders have to say about this?
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  3. #3
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    Smile

    That's an interesting topic you have raised there. I guess we don't really think about how we do what we do, we just do it. I'll try and see if I can analyse it without falling off. The racers among us would be able to give us a good insight into it.
    Marty

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion
    For the last few weeks I have been attempting to actually analyse what happens when I corner . Not the "shit oh shit, I'm gonna die" bit, but the actual physics of the bike.

    .
    Ah, Ixion,my friend.If you manage to make your bike go around corners you counter steer.
    see:
    http//www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixie
    Ah, Ixion,my friend.If you manage to make your bike go around corners you counter steer.
    see:
    http//www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
    Ummm.. Dude: I think you missed the point.
    I thought Ixion was talking about preferential counter-steering: we're naturally better at left-hand corners due to our throttle hand being busy throttling.
    ... and that's what I think.

    Or summat.


    Or maybe not...

    Dunno really....


  7. #7
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    with the throttle thing into corners, try putting ur thumb on the switch console, helps to hold ur whole hand steady, sometimes take a little bit of getting used to. Im trying to strengthen my wrist so that the said situation is not a problem.

    Good point though, i know what you mean
    and of course being a sub-concious thing, i never thought of it myself!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by vifferman
    Ummm.. Dude: I think you missed the point.
    I thought Ixion was talking about preferential counter-steering: we're naturally better at left-hand corners due to our throttle hand being busy throttling.
    Sorry ,You're right Good observation, Ixion
    I'm always amazed by the one armed guy who rides the motard,saw him doing a supermoto ,jumps and all

    I wonder what riding with a quad's thumb throttle would be like?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixie
    I wonder what riding with a quad's thumb throttle would be like?
    Probably why they have a thumb throttle,there is no counter steering on a quad,it's all hard work push pull.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by vifferman
    Ummm.. Dude: I think you missed the point.
    I thought Ixion was talking about preferential counter-steering: we're naturally better at left-hand corners due to our throttle hand being busy throttling.
    Yes, just so. I know how to countersteer consciously, if needed. What was interesting was that the hand position on the left hand bar made unconscious but deliberate countersteer easy , whereas the need for throttle twiddling makes it not happen on the right hand

    Maybe we should go back to throttle levers ?
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  11. #11
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    Interesting stuff. It took me a while to get used to right hand cornering when I learned to ride, and I still have more dodgy right hand cornering than left. I know a girl who has been riding now for a couple of years who refuses to turn right because it freaks her out. She will plan a route from A to B with only left handers - even if it means going out of her way to do so. If she goes on rides that take her out of her comfort zone - she goes as a pillion. Many have tried to help, but failed.
    Checkout my blog: www.wubboodesigns.com

  12. #12
    Subconsious countersteering,it's a part of riding - like Ixion I have watched what I am doing an see myself constantly doing subtle countersteering and throttle adjustments.

    When my wife was learning to ride my sidecar she had great trouble - she couldn't even get down the drive,she kept spearing into the fence on the right handside.Now a sidecar is set up with the bike leaning out to the right,so she kept trying to countersteer the bike upright again,which meant she turned right all the time.Her countersteering response was so ingrained she couldn't overcome it...just a trick of the mind.
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  13. #13
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    a point, the bars are joined together are they not? so a push on the right is the same as a pull on the left?! so to increase the ease of rights give the left bar a tug/careful pull.

    Another way is to take your left hand out of the situation and ride with just your right for a bit to get used to some pulling and pushing.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motu
    Probably why they have a thumb throttle,there is no counter steering on a quad,it's all hard work push pull.
    I rode one for the first time recently.Had to look after the neighbour's goats(drag the dead ones out of public view)
    The quad was so horrible it was like steering a truck,Till I checked the tyre pressures,they wouldn't even register on my digital guage (below 1 psi)
    Big improvement with 5 psi in them

  15. #15
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    You're spot on with the right corner analogy.

    I find it a bit awkward getting my hand "just right" on right hand corners, especially as I usually always am ready to reach for the front brake as I usually always do some amount of very minor braking......and sometimes when you have to accelerate or slow down mid-corner (yes we newbies do that) then it gets a whole lot more awkward...... to make up for this I just hang off the bike a bit more and use more weight on the pegs to balance the loss of countersteering ability from my hand.

    But when turning left the left hand has nothing else to do apart from push down for easier countersteering.

    Also and I don't know how much of you face this..... I can pretty much choose what line I want and even to quite an extent correct/alter my line in left hand corners but not as much in right hand corners where I tend to drift towards to centerline on the road and sometimes even cross it when riding a bit fast when visibility is good.

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