Interesting. A mystery explained. 'twas counter steering all the time.

[vifferman]

True. Very true. But, over the years one can actually acquire habits that are maybe not bad but are not the best. And train oneself to ride in a fashion that is OK, but not the best possible.

And one then needs to sort out what one is actually doing, so as to UNTRAIN ones brain, to allow it to be RETRAINED in a better way.

True. Very true.
I'm sure I have many bad habits. I just hope I'm not beyond unlearning them.

[XP@]

On sealed roads I have a definate pref for right handers... but on gravel they scare me silly!

I think my natural tendancy is towards right because of my handedness. But when on gravel, going round a blind corner with a very slippery surface and totally off camber overrides my natural pref.

[avgas]

Also amazing how far a BMW can be banked over if you really have to !

Its funny u mention that, i remember when i first started to learn to lean hard.... and at on point i leaned a bit too far on the ol' TS and had to lift a bit of pressure off the left peg......as it scraped all along the corner folded up - i was so shocked i made that corner at all on that trail bike.
Also had a friend and last time i saw him ride a bike he just about ground his peg off the sidestand of his poor Jawa.
ah, i miss the good simple days - when 100ks was an achevement

[Gremlin]

well, in a similar vein I figured out today after extensive testing what I was doing wrong when cornering.

When I was going into corners and trying to go a little faster each time (as you do), I couldn't figure out why on earth I could hardly make the corner, especially the right handers.

Then I figured it out. When going round the corners, I was bracing myself too hard with my right hand, hence no turn.

Must test this extensively tomorrow...

[Jackrat]

Ok,I havn,t read the whole thread but I'm still going to put my 5c in anyway.
The left right, which feels the most comfortable is in MHO related more to weather you are left or right handed than any other theroy.
The reason for this,and it's been PROVEN during SAR exersizes and in armed forces exersizes on a regular basis,is that we all have a natural bias depending on weather we are left or right handed,IE a person that is right handed will walk in left handed circles if lost in the bush,a left handed person will walk in right handed circles.
Your natural bias can be countered with both awareness and training.
In my own case as with most of us,I'm right handed so I find right hand corners harder than lefts.Being aware of this bias thing I just make my self apply more counter steering and more lean into rights than I would lefts.
Lefts come naturaly,rights just need a bit more consious effort.
I find the key to be "consious effort" IE,we have to know about our own personal bias and be able to consiously counter it with the application of counter steering and looking to where we want to go in a far more consious way than if we were entering a left hander that just seems to happen more naturaly due to our personal bias.
Anyway If you don't belive me,look it up on a survival site, or better still blind fold yourself an see how far you can walk in a straight line down a footy feild.You won't get half way before walking over the side line.
Try it,it's freaky shit.

[Motu]

Just waiting for some tosser to pipe up and say - ''I'm ambedextrous!'' ...no you're not,you've trained youself,or had someone else (teacher) to use the other hand.

[TwoSeven]

Oh, no - sounds like bollux is about to be sprouted.

[avgas]

Just waiting for some tosser to pipe up and say - ''I'm ambedextrous!'' ...no you're not,you've trained youself,or had someone else (teacher) to use the other hand.

Actually its really easy to become ambedextrous in this world........name one thing that is designed only for left hands? I actually piss alot of people off, cos they try and catch me off guard (eg throwing and catching a ball, tennis etc) and in most of these cases im right handed. For some fucked up reason i only seem to write with my left hand..........mabey my kindie teacher was evil or something.
My poor grandma tried desparately in vain to get me to eat left-handed, think it drove her slightly insane the fact i wrote with one hand and ate with the other.

[justsomeguy]

Actually its really easy to become ambedextrous in this world........name one thing that is designed only for left hands? I actually piss alot of people off, cos they try and catch me off guard (eg throwing and catching a ball, tennis etc) and in most of these cases im right handed. For some fucked up reason i only seem to write with my left hand..........mabey my kindie teacher was evil or something.
My poor grandma tried desparately in vain to get me to eat left-handed, think it drove her slightly insane the fact i wrote with one hand and ate with the other.

One of my best mates is the same - writes with his left - does lots of other stuff with his right.......

[Motu]

True handedness will show itself somehow - the righthanded stuff is taught...or self taught.Paul McCartney I think only plays guitar lefthanded,but he comes from an era where they were made to be right handed.I eat fork or spoon in the left hand,that's because a table is layed with fork on the left,spoon on right....so I changed the spoon over,not the fork.My family has a 50% handed split - even with the daughters boyfriends in the mix we still have the same amount of lefties.A look at our guitar collection will show there are lefties around - I play the sax because it's almost a natural for left handed playing,it just feels right.I'm glad I don't have a clutch on the right,being lefthanded gives you good clutch control.....maybe that's why I'm not a hot braker?

[Ixion]

I do some stuff left handed, some stuff right handed. But the stuff I do left handed I can't do right handed and vice versa.And sometinmes I get confused and start doing something with one "handedness", am very clumsy and change to the other 'handedness" and am better.

I write right handed , eat left handed , drink right handed, mouse left handed. tis all a greta mystery.

[Motu]

Yeah,let's highjack Ixions thread! It's all to do with training,and we get confused with what we are supposed to and what we want to do.I have great diificulty with sissors - as a little guy in the primers I remember getting upset and really doubting my sanity and place in this world...not the sort of thing a 6 year old should really be dealing with.I couldn't work the crappy little sissors they gave us to cut shapes and stuff out of cardboard....but the kid next to me had really sharp sissors that worked perfectly....so when he wasn't looking I'd swap sissors,only to find they were no good either!! When I got older and we could write with a fountain pen it was disaster! No wonder I dreaded school.

So I'm a grup now....and I can buy my own lefthanded sissors - but they don't work!! I've spent so many years training myself to work righthanded sissors I can't work lefthanded ones - oh,it's a cruel world eh?

[froggyfrenchman]

wow! thats so true!

[cowpoos]

The Bad Side - Lefts or Rights?
There are technical points concerning a rider's fear of making either right or left hand turns. Many riders have this fear and it's frustrating. Scores of riders have complained to me about this with a sheepish sort of approach and "admitted" they were perplexed by it. Rightfully so, roughly 50% of their turns were being hampered by an unknown, un-categorized, seemingly unapproachable fear having no apparent source and no apparent reasoning behind it. Out of desperation for an answer riders have blamed their inability on being right or left handed, mysterious brain malfunctions and a host of other equally dead end "nonsense solutions"; nonsense because none of them answered their questions or addressed the hesitance, uncertainty and fear. Having a fear of right turns would be the worst if you lived in Kansas or Nebraska where practically the only turns worth the title are freeway on and off ramps. If you went "ramping" with your friends, "doing the cloverleaf", round and round, you'd be at the back of the pack . Anxiety on lefts would exclude you from the dirt track racing business for sure but mainly we are talking about day to day riding and any such apprehension as this (and there are others) spoils a rider's confidence, making him somewhat gun shy. There are actually three reasons why you could have this unidirectional phobia (fear) and all three contain an inordinate amount of some emotional response that runs from suspicion and distrust to mild panic and a dose of plain old anxiety dropped into the middle for good measure. By the way, if you consider yourself in this category of rider, count your blessings, many riders have bi-directional phobia and it's only by their force of will and love of freedom that they persist in their riding at all!
First Reason
Reason number one for this fear is that you crashed on the right or left at sometime and the relatively indelible mental scar is still on the mend but remains a more or less hidden and nagging source of irritation. The part of the mind that is concerned with survival does not easily forget and the proof is that our species still exists.
There have no doubt been other more pressing problems along the way that have tried and tested Man in his effort to put order into his environment. The fact that the incident of a crash drops down to an obscure sub-level of awareness is not a help in this, or perhaps any other case, as it can affect our riding from there and can add an unpredictable element to our riding.
You may gain some control over this with practice but the oddest part of it is that if one hasn't ridden for a while this apprehension of turning right or left can return in force... provided it springs from this particular source. In the technology of the mind and according to the discipline of Dianetics, these incidents are stored in what is called the Reactive Mind, for the obvious reason that one finds himself reacting to, rather than being co-active with, some circumstance. In this case, right or left turns.
Second Reason
In the discipline of riding technology we have the act and activity of counter-steering to contend with. Here a rider may have become confused, in a panic of some sort, and gone back to another variety of "survival response" that pressed him into turning the bike's bars in the direction he wanted to go rather than doing the correct (and backwards from other vehicle's steering) action of counter-steering. That instant of confusion has stopped many riders cold in their tracks, never to twist their wrist again and pleasure themselves with motorcycle riding.
Turn left to go right push the right bar to go right, its the thing that eludes us in that panic situation (statistically) more commonly than anything save only the overuse and locking of the rear brake.
When you dissect this confusion regarding the counter-steering process you see that it is possibly more devastating than the rear end lock up, even though both have the same result, the bike goes straight, and often straight into that which we were trying to avoid. Basics prevail--You can only do two things on a motorcycle, change its speed and change its direction. Confusion on counter-steering locks up the individual's senses tighter than a transmission run without oil and reduces those two necessary control factors down to one...A bad deal in anyone's book.
Third Reason
The third possible reason for being irrational about rights and lefts is the one that has solved it more often than not--practice. Applying the drill sergeant's viewpoint of repeatedly training the rider to practice and eventually master the maneuver is a very practical solution. I suppose this one falls under the heading of the discipline of rider dynamics. And a casual inspection of riders will show you the following: Ninety-five percent of all riders push the bike down and away from their body to initiate a turn or steering action, especially when attempting to do it rapidly. Rapidly meaning something on the order of how fast you would have to turn your bike if someone stopped quickly in front of you and you wanted to simply ride around them; or avoid a pothole or a rock or any obstacle.
For example, a muffler falls off the car in front on the freeway at 60 mph, that's eighty-eight feet per second of headway you are making down the road. Despite the fact you've left a generous forty feet between you and the car, that translates into one half second to get the bike's direction diverted, including your reaction time to begin the steering process. We're talking about a couple of tenths of a second here--right now.
This procedure riders have of pushing the bike down and away from themselves to steer it seems like an automatic response and is most probably an attempt to keep oneself in the normally correct relationship to the planet and its gravity, namely, vertically oriented or perpendicular to the ground. This is a good idea for walking, sitting and standing--but not for riding. When you stay "on top" of the bike, pushing it under and away, you actually commit a number of riding dynamics sins. The first of which is the bad passenger syndrome."
Bad Passenger
Bad passengers lean the wrong way on the bike. They position themselves in perfect discord--counter to your intended lean, steering and cornering sensibilities. So do you when you push the bike away from yourself, or hold your body rigidly upright on the bike--very stately looking, very cool but ultimately it's an inefficient rider position. The most usual solution to a bad passenger's efforts to go against the bike's cornering lean angle is brow beating them and threaten "no more rides." But how do you fix this tendency in yourself?
A bad passenger makes you correct your steering and eventually become wary of their actions and the bike's response to them. This ultimately leads to becoming tense on the bike while in turns. Pushing the bike away from yourself or sitting rigidly upright while riding solo has the same effect.
Hung Off Upright
Hang off style riders don't think this applies to them but it does. Many riders are still pushing the bike under themselves while hung off. Look through some race photos especially on the club and national level and you will easily see that some are still trying to be bad passengers on their own bike and countering the benefits of the hung position by trying to remain upright through the corners.
A rider's hung-off style may have more to do with his ability to be comfortable with the lean of the bike, and go with it, than anything else. This is not to say there is only one way to sit on a bike, in any style of riding. But it does mean that each rider must find his own way of agreeing with his bike's dynamics and remain in good perspective to the road. And this doesn't mean that you always have to have your head and eyes parallel with the horizon as some riders claim. But it does mean that you may have to push yourself to get out of the "man is an upright beast" mode of thinking and ride with the bike, not against it. It may feel awkward at first but it's the only way to be "in-unit" with the bike. On a professional level most riders do this. John Kocinski is an example of someone in perfect harmony with his machine and Mick Doohan has modified his sit-up push-it-under style of riding over the past couple of years to one that is more in line with the bike.
Show and Tell
If you have a rider (or yourself) do a quick flick, side to side, steering maneuver in a parking lot you'll clearly observe them jerking and stuffing the bike underneath themselves in an effort to overwhelm it with good intentions and brute force rather than using correct, effective and efficient steering technique.

[cowpoos]

There are other steering quirks you may observe while having someone do this simple show-and-tell parking lot drills. For example, some riders have a sudden hitch that comes at the end of the steering when they have leaned it over as far as they dare. It's a kind of jerking motion initiated from their rigid upper body.
You may see an exaggerated movement at the hips; that's another variation of their attempt to keep the back erect. Also, look for no movement of the head or extreme movement of it to keep the head erect. A general tenseness of the whole body is common as is lots of side to side motion of the bike. So what's the right thing to do here?
Good Passenger
What does a good passenger do? NOTHING. They just sit there and enjoy the ride, practically limp on the saddle. The bike leans over and so does the passenger. Which scenario agrees with motorcycle design: weight on top that is moving or weight that is stable and tracking with it? Motorcycles respond best to a positive and sure hand that does the least amount of changing. You, as a rider, need to do the same thing, basically, NOTHING. Holding your body upright is not doing nothing it is doing something. It is an action you initiate, a tenseness you provide and it is in opposition to the bike's intended design--what it likes.
More Lean
There is another technical point here. The more you stay erect and try to push the bike down and away (motocross style riding) the more leaned over you must be to get through the turn. That's a fact. Crotch rocket jockeys hang off their bikes for show but the pros do it to lean their bikes over less. You can counter this adverse affect of having to lean more by simply going with the bike while you turn it, in concert with and congruous to its motion, not against it. There is even an outside chance you may find it feels better and improves your control over the bike and reduces the number of mini-actions needed to corner. There is also a good possibility that this will open the door to conquering your directional fear, whichever form it may take.
Diagnosis
Look for one or more of these indications on your "bad" side: 1. The body is stiff or tense while making turns on the side you don't like, at least more so than on the side you do like. 2. You don't allow your body to go with the bike's lean on side: You are fighting it and it is fighting you. 3. The effort to remain perfectly vertical is greater on your bad side. 4. You will find yourself being less aggressive with the turning process on your bad side. 5. You will find yourself being shortsighted, looking too close to the bike on that shy side. 6. You will find yourself making more steering corrections by trying to "dip" the bike into turns or pressing and releasing the bars several times in each turn. 7. You will notice a tendency to stiff arm the steering. 8. You will notice you are trying to steer the bike with your shoulders rather than you arms.
You might find more symptoms but one or more of the above will be present on your bad side.
Coaching
The very best and simplest way I've found to cure this tendency to push the bike under is to have someone watch you while you do a quick flick, back and forth, steering drill in a parking lot. You have your friend stand at one point and you ride directly away from him or her as though you were weaving cones and then turn around and ride directly back at them weaving as quickly as you feel comfortable and at a speed you like, usually second gear. In that way your coach is able to see you either going with the bike at each steering change or they will see you and the bike crisscrossing back and forth from each other.
As the coach, that's what you are looking for, the bike and the rider doing the same action, the rider's body is leaned over the same as the bike at each and every point from beginning of the steering action to the end. There is no trick to seeing this...it is obvious. For example, when they ride away from you, if you see the mirrors moving closer and further away from the rider's body, they are obviously not moving together. That's pushing the bike under rather than good steering. This is also the time to notice which side is the rider's bad side. The back and forth flicks will be hesitant on one side or the other.
Remedies
The entire purpose of this exercise is to have the rider get in better communication with his machine--going with it not against it--and not treating it as though it were a foreign object that he is wrestling to stay on top of or muscle it down like a rodeo rider. Often, it simply takes a reminder to loosen-up the upper body. Sometimes the rider needs to lean forward and imagine the tank and he are one and the same. On sportbikes, a full crouch over the tank can sometimes be the answer to link the rider with his bike, giving him a ready reference to it's physical attitude in relation to the road.
Making sure the rider has some bend in his elbows while leaning forward slightly seems to help. Having them use palm pressure to steer the bike seems to resolve the tendency to muscle the bike over from side to side. Dropping the elbows so the forearm is more level with the tank makes the steering easier and promotes their going with the bike and takes them away from the stiff armed approach to steering. Reminders to relax the shoulders and let the arms do the work of steering also helps.
End Result
You stop doing the drill when the rider has the feeling he is in better control of the bike, when he has the idea of how easy and how much less effort it takes to steer; or when he feels comfortable with both rights and lefts. There could be other contributing factors like overly worn tires or a bent frame that would bring a genuine and justified anxiety to a right or left turn but I believe the above three reasons cover everything else and if you are anything like the hundreds of riders I've had do the above drill, you could use a little work on this area even if you don't have a bad side. I hope it helps.
©Keith Code 1996-1997