Public liability

[FJRider]

.... Natural hazards are excluded, only need to warn of out of the ordinary hazards.

So ... the two bulls in the back paddock are a "natural" hazard ... or an "ordinary" hazzard ... ???

[monchopper]

Depending on the circumstances of the particular road. And untill you find out if permission to close the road was given ... and/or why/ the reasons for such ... removing locks for your entry may not be the wisest move.

There are a number of roads (public and paper roads) that are regulary closed to public use for weather or farming reasons(lambing, hay-making etc).

The Danseys pass road and the Dunstan trail, also the Roxburgh-Waikaia road ... the Nevis valley road ... all roads where motorcyclists is the past have ignored signs/locks and attempted to use them, and sometimes needed assistance to get out.

If a "public road" in your area is locked ... and you cannot see a reason/get a reason for it to be closed ... lay a complaint (or at least ask polite questions) with the local Police. If anybody needs to know why a public road should be/is closed ... it would be them.

Paper and public roads are the same thing.
I've never heard of a public road reserve being closed for farming reasons.
Link to back that up?

If a the gate on a public road is locked and there is no notice from the local authority as to why it's locked then you're within you legal rights to use the minimum amount of force to gain passage, which is in most cases cutting the lock.

[FJRider]

Paper and public roads are the same thing.
I've never heard of a public road reserve being closed for farming reasons.
Link to back that up?

If a the gate on a public road is locked and there is no notice from the local authority as to why it's locked then you're within you legal rights to use the minimum amount of force to gain passage, which is in most cases cutting the lock.

An interesting link ...

http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/the-...er-roads-.html

Another link ...

http://www.walkingaccess.govt.nz/sto...galRoad_AW.pdf

[timmehpwr]

very interesting reading about locked gates on paper roads... we ran into a problem recently with the lake station farmer at Lake Sumner, sounds like his padlocks attached to the DOC gate are indeed illegal, which is the oposite of what he told us...

[cooneyr]

.....The Danseys pass road and the Dunstan trail, also the Roxburgh-Waikaia road ... the Nevis valley road ... all roads where motorcyclists is the past have ignored signs/locks and attempted to use them, and sometimes needed assistance to get out.

If a "public road" in your area is locked ... and you cannot see a reason/get a reason for it to be closed ... lay a complaint (or at least ask polite questions) with the local Police. If anybody needs to know why a public road should be/is closed ... it would be them.

The roads you mention above are all managed by the Road Controling Authority (normally the council) and are all closed by them. The RCA has the authority to do this - a private person most certainly does not. While the local police may deal with law infringments they also do not have the powers to close a legal road except in emergency or preplaned situations (read events). A pissed off farmer has absolutly no right to impeed public from using an legal rd - formed or unformed. I'm all for asking nicely first then cutting locks on paper rds where forestry guys or farmers have blocked access.

So ... the two bulls in the back paddock are a "natural" hazard ... or an "ordinary" hazzard ... ???

Well I grew up on a farm so a bull is an ordinary hazard. Look at the DoL webiste again, "out-of-the-ordinary hazard" is the term. The examples include activities that a dangerous and don't occur very often. A tractor or truck being driven along a track, a paddock being worked, silage being made etc are not metioned, nor are animals cause guess what they are all normal farm activites.

An interesting link ...

http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/the-...er-roads-.html

Another link ...

http://www.walkingaccess.govt.nz/sto...galRoad_AW.pdf

This is actually good stuff cause it clearly states that there is no legal difference between unformed legal roads (known as paper rds) and formed roads. It also clearly states that the public have the right to use paper roads. Your second link has the following as the first Para on its second page.

"Farmers may put gates or cattle stops
across roads that are not fenced for
livestock control purposes. Gates may
only be placed with the permission of
the relevant territorial authority, may
not be locked and must have a sign
indicating that they are on a public road."

Our biggest problem is identifying where the paper rds are and then staying on them when we use them. Once we have identified their location it is still the best idea to talk to the farmer about its use because we can't guarantee that we are staying on them and keeping on the good side of the farmer by staying away during lambing etc is the polite thing to do.

[dino3310]

bloody good thread this bugga

[That looks like fun]

Im with ya Dino, its an interesting read
This guy is so far off the mark, its got to be a piss take or a windup
It is however amusing watching him go down in flames and still keep shooting
And now we wait Doug

[FJRider]

This is actually good stuff cause it clearly states that there is no legal difference between unformed legal roads (known as paper rds) and formed roads. It also clearly states that the public have the right to use paper roads. Your second link has the following as the first Para on its second page.

"Farmers may put gates or cattle stops
across roads that are not fenced for
livestock control purposes. Gates may
only be placed with the permission of
the relevant territorial authority, may
not be locked and must have a sign
indicating that they are on a public road."

Our biggest problem is identifying where the paper rds are and then staying on them when we use them. Once we have identified their location it is still the best idea to talk to the farmer about its use because we can't guarantee that we are staying on them and keeping on the good side of the farmer by staying away during lambing etc is the polite thing to do.

I was being a smarty-pants about the bull ... although you may know (through experience) some bulls ARE "special" hazards to avoid at all costs ... often grazed in the front paddock for this reason ...

I have lived and worked on farms throughout the south island, and am familiar with paper roads and their identification/location issues. A track in the area may not actually be the "road" in question. As you well know. Tracks were often put (and changed to suit conditions at the time) in the easiest place ... not always where the surveyers marked the map as a road (was to go).

After spending an afternoon trawlling the internet on paper roads ... I found it is not an issue for any one district ... nor is it an easy problem to sort out to the satisfaction of all parties. Some disputes on this subject, in various areas, have required court action to resolve .... in some form ... often even then, with no cut and dried result.

Police seem to be not wanting to get involved in "Civil issues" ... but only acting on complaints from either party, and acting on (or not) instruction from their own legal advisors.

Discussions with the land (the paper road is on) "occupier" and the relevent local councils, seems to be the advised action.

Be careful of following the (motor ???) cycling stalwarts policy, of only quoting the laws that suit you ... at the time ....

[warewolf]

No need to discuss liability ... if permission is not granted.

Permission not required... for a public road, paper or otherwise.

[warewolf]

A track in the area may not actually be the "road" in question. As you well know. Tracks were often put (and changed to suit conditions at the time) in the easiest place ... not always where the surveyers marked the map as a road (was to go).

True. And further if a farmer decides to move the track, usually for his own convenience, he cannot [edit: or more correctly perhaps, should not] block the surveyed road with locked gates, fences etc, and then turn around and deny usage of "his" track because it's not the paper road.

His choices become a) let the public traverse his new track, or b) public removes illegal gates/fences along surveyed route to effect passage. His call.

[monchopper]

True. And further if a farmer decides to move the track, usually for his own convenience, he cannot block the surveyed road with locked gates, fences etc, and then turn around and deny usage of "his" track because it's not the paper road.

His choices become a) let the public traverse his new track, or b) public removes illegal gates/fences along surveyed route to effect passage. His call.

Correct.
I've often wondered about taking the following action for some paper/unformed road that could be really usefull for recreation purposes, but the where the formed track differs from the legal line.

1. Get hold of some industrial strenght GPS equipment
2. Get some road cones or the like and mark out the route
3. Get as many 4wd and motorcycles as possible to drive up and down the route until a track has been formed

[warewolf]

I've often wondered about taking the following action

That has been proposed in previous discussions. Indeed from reading of legal battles over paper roads, regular usage is one of the biggest barriers to having its status changed to remove access.

[monchopper]

Our biggest problem is identifying where the paper rds are and then staying on them when we use them. Once we have identified their location it is still the best idea to talk to the farmer about its use because we can't guarantee that we are staying on them and keeping on the good side of the farmer by staying away during lambing etc is the polite thing to do.

I had an interesting discuss with a lawyer about this and trepassing.
It appears (if I understood him correctly) if a formed track broadly follows the legel line then it is reasonable for the user to assume that the formed track is the legal line even in places where you are not.

[cooneyr]

That has been proposed in previous discussions. Indeed from reading of legal battles over paper roads, regular usage is one of the biggest barriers to having its status changed to remove access.

One of the arguments I've seen used plenty when a RCA wants to close a road is that "no body uses it so no consequence in closing". Problem is that most common reason for not using is people don't know that its there - kinda self fulfilling.

I had an interesting discuss with a lawyer about this and trepassing.
It appears (if I understood him correctly) if a formed track broadly follows the legel line then it is reasonable for the user to assume that the formed track is the legal line even in places where you are not.

Not sure about the legal aspects of this but from a practical perspective its got to be the best outcome. Better that than "I'll just cut these trees down so I can stay "on line" rather than use the open track 50m to my right". In saying this the key bit I didn't quote from the walking access commission fact sheet is that your not allowed to damage private property in reopening the route i.e. cutting locks or smashing up gates isn't actually playing the game. It suggest talk to landowner, then council to resolve.

This has been entertaining for a first day back at work.

[FJRider]

Permission not required... for a public road, paper or otherwise.

Nothing mentioned about paper or public roads in the first post of this thread, which I referred to in the post of mine you just quoted .... access was asked for and was refused. ... end of story ....