Brian Tamaki a Bishop!

**Hitcher** · 23rd June 2005, 18:14

Originally Posted by TwoSeven

My argument is that I dont believe it is morally right to make someone to pay tax on their faith.

I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive. The greater the level of contribution from the faithful, the more "good works" they can do. However that's usually where the model breaks down and accountability to parishioners/contributors goes completely out the window, those in "authority" get greedy, corruption seeps in and the whole thing turns to poop. Instead of African orphans and clean water schemes for the third world, its Hummers for the "Bishops" and multi-million dollar worship palaces. This is one reason why I have respect for people of faith who choose not to align with a branded religion or denomination, yet do their own good works in their own way.

Matthew 5:16

**Ms Piggy** · 23rd June 2005, 18:20

Arrrggggghhhhhh!

What a creep! Yes it is amusing that he calls NZ "...my christian nation."

I'm just grateful that he is so radical and extremist that his narrow minded, bigoted political party won't even get a lot of christian votes!

**Ms Piggy** · 23rd June 2005, 18:22

Originally Posted by Hitcher

I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive. The greater the level of contribution from the faithful, the more "good works" they can do. However that's usually where the model breaks down and accountability to parishioners/contributors goes completely out the window, those in "authority" get greedy, corruption seeps in and the whole thing turns to poop. Instead of African orphans and clean water schemes for the third world, its Hummers for the "Bishops" and multi-million dollar worship palaces. This is one reason why I have respect for people of faith who choose not to align with a branded religion or denomination, yet do their own good works in their own way.

Matthew 5:16

Amen! Couldn't have expressed it better myself. Actions speak louder than words!!!

**Ixion** · 23rd June 2005, 18:24

Originally Posted by Hitcher

I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive. The greater the level of contribution from the faithful, the more "good works" they can do. However that's usually where the model breaks down and accountability to parishioners/contributors goes completely out the window, those in "authority" get greedy, corruption seeps in and the whole thing turns to poop. Instead of African orphans and clean water schemes for the third world, its Hummers for the "Bishops" and multi-million dollar worship palaces. This is one reason why I have respect for people of faith who choose not to align with a branded religion or denomination, yet do their own good works in their own way.

Matthew 5:16

that is very true. Bishop Hitcher anyone?. Only point is that other service organisations, like KB, don't have the ability to tell their members that they'll go to hell if they don't cough up.

Fewer people would have reservations about tithing if it was genuinely voluntary.

Seem to remember something about a widow's mite.

**Hitcher** · 23rd June 2005, 18:49

Originally Posted by Ixion

Seem to remember something about a widow's mite.

Do I detect an Aussie accent?

**TwoSeven** · 23rd June 2005, 20:22

Originally Posted by Hitcher

I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive.
Matthew 5:16

See my earlier argument. The church taxes (the meaning of tithe) by means of solicitation the faithfull that attend. KB recieves unsolicited donations (aka. a part of peoples bounty) much like a begger in the streat.

My argument still holds. However, I do agree with the last part. Donating to say 'save the children fund' or something like that is a worthy cause. Being asked to give so a church gets a nice art collection is just plain wrong. Wasnt so long agon that church folks had to work for their livings.

If your going to quote the bible at me - at least use one that wasnt made up in 500AD by people that wanted money to run their empire

**TwoSeven** · 24th June 2005, 13:51

Out of interest the technique I used is a common one, its kind of like a tripple hook technique - there is a proper term for it in psychology, but I cant remember it.

In basic 'propaganda' the objective is to get people to believe things they otherwise wouldnt. Its used in management, politics, advertising, news broadcasting, education and of course religion. Once a personal believes something they normally wouldnt, they can be made to do things they normally wouldnt (a technique of effective people management).

This technique starts of by stating a basic fact that is otherwise true. Its the same as asking a question in which you must answer 'yes'. You cant 'not answer yes to it'.

I then add another fact that is 'most likely' true (it needs to be more true than false) as its a 'positive reenforcer' to the original. Then follow it up with a third one, that should be true, or in the case of the intention to mislead, will normally sound true, but be false. I'm leveraging 'operant conditioning' if you are familiar with pavlov and his dog.

This is similar to the joke where you ask someone to say 'toast' 10 times, then ask them what they put in a toaster really quickly when they finish - usually they say toast, when the answer is bread.

Now - I could give this information direct if the receiver was non-hostile, or in the case of a hostile person (someone who has the opposite views), I would 'seed' it. Basically I give the information to someone you know and trust, who then tells you. Having no reason to disbelieve them, you take the information on board. You dont need to agree with it, just having it go in one ear and out the other is enough.

I then come along and approach the subject by asking a question that is related to the information you ask, or mis-quote the information to you. If i've used the correct trigger words, you will recall the information I seeded earlier through your peers, and quote it back in firm belief. Thats the hook line and sinker taken.

I dont have to give the information to your friends/relatives. I can give it to their friends. The further away from you I seed the information, the longer it takes to get to you, but the more likely you are to believe it.

The most ideal time to seed the information is when you are most receptive. These can be age related (young/teenage/old), stress related, peer related (thru trusted friends). I could, even change your friends or seed new friends into your immediate group, or associated group (work peers).

A good game is to watch for it in adverts. Dentist adverts with the person in a white coat and in a minimalist setting are really good examples.