F1GP

[Motu]

I think Michelin has the technology to make tyres at the track,the cases are premade and they put on the tread compound for the day.But I think that was stopped with the one tyre rules,possibly one of the reasons the rule was done as it gave Michelin too much of an advantage....and they sure couldn't take that rig to Indy.

This discussion is all over the net of course,and F1 specific sites are discusing it over and over like vultures picking clean a carcase.One point of view put forward by someone I thought quite interesting - he looked at it as employer and employee....Michelin as employee supplying tyres made a mistake,realised it and fronted up to management and said we made a cock up...the next step as a money making business is for managment to step up to the plate and put forward a solution.The ultimate responsability rests with F1 Managment to deal with it...not pass the buck and lay the blame on tyre supplyers,teams or drivers.Michelin fucked up.....but the rules caused the fuck up to happen in the first place.

[Lou Girardin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the changes to tyres are almost always to the compound. This was a carcass fault.
The FIA did offer to allow tyre changes under the safety rule, but that meant a change every 10 laps.
This debacle does no credit to the FIA and their stupid rules, they are emasculating F1 to make it more interesting. But soon it'll be no more than a glorified F3000.

[Kickaha]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the changes to tyres are almost always to the compound. This was a carcass fault.

Changes can be made to either carcass or compound as different construction used to be made for different tracks and cars

I think Michelin has the technology to make tyres at the track,the cases are premade and they put on the tread compound for the day.But I think that was stopped with the one tyre rules,possibly one of the reasons the rule was done as it gave Michelin too much of an advantage....and they sure couldn't take that rig to Indy.

You would still need some quite serious gear to be able to do that at the track to make enough tyres for all the teams,I wouldn't think it was possible but if you've you got any sources for that I'd be interested to see it

It takes up to 12 hours to make a single tire (although they are made on a production line). They have to make 4 tires per car + 4 spare on race day * 4 compounds (soft, hard, inter and wet) * 3 days * 14 cars. That works out at about 1300 odd tires (although they will only fly out half that number).

I'm well aware of what it take to make a tyre as I work for one of the companies involved and have done several tours throught the factory and had the contruction process explained to me and watched it being done

1300 tyres is a drop in the bucket for a company like Michelin the local Chch factory builds between 4000-5000 per 24 hour shift and it is quite small as factories go

Michelin two years ago said they could make rapid changes and build tyres within 3 days so I still have serious doubts about the 12 month figure, that may be from initial planning but I still doubt they would build that far in advance

From what I understand the track had been resurfaced

About 25% had been resurfaced including the corner they were talking about running at reduced speed,it was the improvement in grip at this corner and the increased speed through this corner the think was causing the problem

[Suney]

The ultimate responsability rests with F1 Managment to deal with it...not pass the buck and lay the blame on tyre supplyers,teams or drivers.Michelin fucked up.....but the rules caused the fuck up to happen in the first place.

So are you saying that F1 management should of bent the rules to disadvantage the bridgestone runners? It's a professional sports with heaps and heaps of dollars invested into it, they can't just bend the rule everytime a team has a problem

[Motu]

So are you saying that F1 management should of bent the rules to disadvantage the bridgestone runners? It's a professional sports with heaps and heaps of dollars invested into it, they can't just bend the rule everytime a team has a problem

What do you think all these rules changes are about? One tyre rule,one engine for 2 races,aerodynaics,qualifying? We just had another qualifying rule change - They haven't got a clue on how to fix F1 and are just throwing patches on left right and centre....with this level of imcompitance I see no problem in making up a new rule just for the day,it's no worse than what they've already been doing....

It wasn't me who put in that theory,I just think the comparrison to business,which is what F1 is after all,was a diffrent slant.

[Motu]

Check out these shots of tyre deformation in T13,the first 2 last years Bridgestones,the last Fisichella's Renault in this years practice.The Michelin has a squarer shoulder and puts more heat into this area.Sure is some stress here.

[Motu]

You would still need some quite serious gear to be able to do that at the track to make enough tyres for all the teams,I wouldn't think it was possible but if you've you got any sources for that I'd be interested to see it

Of course it takes some serious shit load of gear....but we are talking F1 and Michelin here...and I think that was when they had not so many teams to deal with.Dunno if I could ever purposely find the sourse,I follow several F1 sites and am not too shit hot on computer stuff......I might find it if I went searching for a recipe for eel soup,maybe.....

[Lou Girardin]

So are you saying that F1 management should of bent the rules to disadvantage the bridgestone runners? It's a professional sports with heaps and heaps of dollars invested into it, they can't just bend the rule everytime a team has a problem

Exactly right.
If Bridgestone users had gone to the FIA and said our tyres aren't as good as the Michelins, we want to change them during the race, What would the other teams have said?

[Ixion]

Of course it takes some serious shit load of gear....but we are talking F1 and Michelin here...and I think that was when they had not so many teams to deal with.Dunno if I could ever purposely find the sourse,I follow several F1 sites and am not too shit hot on computer stuff......I might find it if I went searching for a recipe for eel soup,maybe.....

Here y'go, save y'searchin'

Eel Soup

2.25lt (4 pints) Water
1.35kg (3lb) Eels
1 Onion
150ml (¼ pint) Cream
3 Blades Mace
1 Bunch Sweet Herbs
50g (2oz) Butter
7g (¼oz) Peppercorns
2 tbsp Flour
Salt, to taste

Wash the eels, cut them into thin slices and put them in the saucepan with the butter.
Simmer for a few minutes, then pour in the water and add the thin sliced onion, herbs, mace and seasoning.
Simmer until the eels are tender, but do not break the fish.
Take them out carefully, mix the flour smoothly to a batter with the cream.
Bring to the boil, pour over the eels and serve.

Time: 1 hour or rather more.
Sufficient for 8 persons.
Seasonable from June to March.

Note: This soup may be flavoured differently by omitting the cream and adding a little ketchup or Harvey’s sauce.

[Motu]

Yeah but....how can I go searching for important information if I don't have unimportant information to sidetrack me.I can't see the forest for the trees....so if you you go looking for forests you find all sorts of stuff on the breeding patterns of polar bears - don't you know how the internet works?

[Motu]

With just a ''quick'' look I found this post from 2003,the 'tyregate' scandal,some reference to the portable tyre assembly factory.


The press reports seemed to read as though they're testing those new tires right now, yesterday and today. I'm thinking they've found some way to assemble their existing components (carcass and tread) into a tire that is compliant with the new rules. I can't believe they've actually had the time to redesign a new carcass and tread and manufacture enough in the 2 or 3 days we've had. Especially over a holiday weekend.

I speculated in this post that perhaps Michelin is squeezing the carcass at the sides and stretching the tread over it before attaching it in order to narrow the tire a few mm. And since they have that fast portable tire assembly plant on a semi-trailer, they could have dragged it to Monza to continuously make and test new versions as needed.

For those not familiar with Michelin's portable tire assemble 'factory', I use the analogy of a hot-dog stand. As just like a hot-dog vendor, it takes two complex pre-made components and assembles them. (You ever try making hot dogs and hot dog buns from scratch? Me either, that qualifies as complex to me.)

From what I gather, the main purpose of portable assembly 'factory' is to allow Michelin a good deal more flexibility, in that they can choose a compound only a day or so prior to the GP weekend, taking advantage of the latest weather reports. But from what I gather, it just assembles tires, it doesn't really "manufacture" tires.

So if they could squeeze them in just a little bit, it might make them compliant with the new rules. Especially if the changed the suspension setup a bit, put in a bit more air and ran a slightly harder compound.

[TwoSeven]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the changes to tyres are almost always to the compound. This was a carcass fault.
The FIA did offer to allow tyre changes under the safety rule, but that meant a change every 10 laps.
This debacle does no credit to the FIA and their stupid rules, they are emasculating F1 to make it more interesting. But soon it'll be no more than a glorified F3000.

Your right to some degree.

A tire is made up of a carcass with a surface added. The carcass usually includes the sidewall of the tire (the bit that was at fault). The compound refers to the material of the surface added - softer means more material has to be used and more weight.

The weight of the tire dictates the lateral force that can be applied to the sidewall of the carcas - its speed x weight x lateral G = final figure.

If the final figure is higher than a certain point, the tire will fail. For the US GP, the turn had a high lateral G and a high speed.

One of michelins solutions was to fly out a harder compound tire which would reduce the surface rubber required which reduces the weight - being a harder compound it also reduced the level of grip and therefore the speed.

Even after those changes it was still found that the 'final figure' from the tire under race conditions still exceeded that at what it would fail at.

Adding a chicane makes the cars slow at the point in the corner where the lateral force would have been the highest - taking it out of the equation completely.

Note - the carcass used for the tire is the same for all compounds of tires - its very seldom changed. The reason why they dont often use a high strength sidewall construction (like dunlop do in their bike tires) is because it affects tire pressure and therefore heat buildup (and all those other factors). Lower pressures give higher grip, which is what they wanted in those tires.

[TwoSeven]

With just a ''quick'' look I found this post from 2003,the 'tyregate' scandal,some reference to the portable tyre assembly factory.



For those not familiar with Michelin's portable tire assemble 'factory', I use the analogy of a hot-dog stand. As just like a hot-dog vendor, it takes two complex pre-made components and assembles them. (You ever try making hot dogs and hot dog buns from scratch? Me either, that qualifies as complex to me.)

From what I gather, the main purpose of portable assembly 'factory' is to allow Michelin a good deal more flexibility, in that they can choose a compound only a day or so prior to the GP weekend, taking advantage of the latest weather reports. But from what I gather, it just assembles tires, it doesn't really "manufacture" tires.

Following my earlier post. They have a prebuilt carcass and a premade surface. The latter is heated up til its really gooey, then rolled onto the carcass, stuck in a mould then cooled.

Most tire makers use the same technique, just that here its been made portable.

[Kickaha]

Following my earlier post. They have a prebuilt carcass and a premade surface. The latter is heated up til its really gooey, then rolled onto the carcass, stuck in a mould then cooled.

Most tire makers use the same technique, just that here its been made portable.

They don't heat anything up until after the tread is bonded to the carcass then it is put under heat and pressure to cure in the mould

Perhaps it is different now but carcass construction used to differ between tracks and in some types of racing between brands of cars

[TwoSeven]

In general I agree with the new F1 rules - they are primarily introduced to reduce the cost of racing to give the small teams a chance to compete with the bigger teams.

Note that Ferrari is the only team that designs and makes its only complete cars including engines. As an example of this they used to take 15 engines to a race weekend for both cars and expected to use 3 per day. Now they are only allowed to use 1 per two race weekends. It also means that only a few need to be built each year.

When ferrari design and build an engine, they expense it as R&D, then sell it and all that lot - other teams cant do that since they are giving their money to ferrari. Effectively the other teams were paying ferrari to take twice as many engines to a race than them which was giving an advantage.

A similar thing happens with tires, instead of paying michelin to make 20 or 50 thousand tires, they only need to pay for a quarter of that number.

All of a sudden the teams made big savings in their budgets, could afford to increase R&D and as you can see in the first races of the year, suddenly became competitive.