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I did go down that path to start with, but the transceivers pretty much govern the whole setup. It's cheaper, simpler and more compact (from what I could find) to have a managed wireless data transfer than it is to transmit a single pin state. That's including microcontrollers at each end too. So all that is needed for the rest, are a few simple components and connectors. Seems simpler to chuck it all in there now rather than make two versions with pretty much the same production cost.
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
Forum whore
Link to a place that sells them?.Originally Posted by allun
Hardcore Biker
www.google.com ?
One of the first hits is a UK place - http://www.ccbiketech.com/sportvue.asp
No obvious NZ distributors, but then again I spent all of 10 seconds looking.
This did turn up though - http://www.reconinstruments.com/ looks good for off road bikes.
Forum whore
The Sportvue is shite by all accounts, otherwise I'd already had one. I'm thinking something about the size of a boot toe slider that mounts to the bottom of the visor. Happy to make a casing in that size/shape.
Hardcore Biker
One particular offering's performance is moot - the point is that there are integrated bluetooth helmets, radar detector wireless helmet displays, HUD systems etc all available commercially.
What seems to be missing is a good simple (uber simple in fact) general purpose warning indicator that people can add to thier bikes very simply (couple of wires) to get an in helmet indication that radar/indicators/highbeam/whatthehelleveryoulike needs your attention.
Feature bloat is the killer of many developments....
imdying, do you have the wherewithall to mould plastic cases? what technology? if I were developing this thing, to be honest the casing would be the biggest hurdle! Off the top of my head the nearest easily commercially available case I can think of is something like this (has battery holder, is a nice small rounded shape, will fit in a helmet easily): http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView....T&SUBCATID=644
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You can avoid feature bloat by not plugging the other bits in, as the production cost difference will be less than $5 it seems foolish not to add them.
I was wondering about making the case (for the helmet end) by just covering the circuit (I think it's about 60x30x5mm) with epoxy and leaving slots to push the batteries (button cells) in from the sides, as a plastic case will make the part significantly more bulky. And use a more general purpose plastic case for the bike unit.
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
Forum whore
i cant be arsed reading the whole thread but my 1979 kawasaki Z1r had self cancelling indicators, so why dont all bikes have them now??
Forum whore
Well that's the thing, they're not... well, they were, but everyone that bought/tested one, that I could find, found they were shite... back to square one.
Increasing the functionality in this case isn't a problem... it's virtually the same amount of work to carry say 10 bytes of data in a pack as it is to carry 2 bits worth, or are you not getting how bogan is explaining it? In laymans terms, think of it like this:
- Interface to bike, 20% of the work
- Carrying data across a wifi link, 50% of the work
- Receiver on helmet, 30% of the work
Increasing the data capacity of his packets amounts to 0.01% more work on the wifi link portion, so yes more work, but insignicantly so, so no good reason to neuter it.
Can't see any reason to get any more complicated than GRP. It just needs to be about the size of a toe slider, to hold a AAA rechargable (assuming it has the mAh for a 4-6 hours use, 2 in a day isn't a biggy), a transceiver, and a row of leds. Butting up against the visor outer face like that will let us use lower output LEDs.
Forum whore
I like that idea, leave the GRP cover on the outside as weather protection for the batteries. Case on the bike I don't care, it's under the seat somewhere. Sealed is always good, although you could fill that with epoxy too.
Cause they're unreliable shite that've killed as many riders as they were supposed to save.
Hardcore Biker
Maybe true for the SportVue HUD, but there are bluetooth enabled helmets out there from more than a couple of manufacturers, plus add on BT kits, and there are radar detectors that have an optional wireless LED add on, as well as the general purpose HARD radar detector notification system. Point being, there are commercial in-helmet warning systems out there, so this one has to be better/cheaper/more features/have racing stripes to make people want it over the others.
Assuming there is a brain at each end....and the hardware at each end to support extra functionality i.e. if at some time in the future you might allow 10 different inputs, do you have 10 spare pins on the microcontroller? Do you want to PAY for 10 spare pins? Do you bring out lots of wires and have installation instructions that say "connect these wires for this setup, these ones for that setup" etc?
I still say it looks like there is a market for a very simple, inexpensive system that wirelessly lights an LED in your helmet when *something* happens on the bike, i.e. radar, indicators, whatever.
My definition of simple is no user configuration, simple 2 wire install, one way communication i.e. bike to helmet, and no microcontrollers. This should be doable for < $10 build in small qty, meaning retail is something like $30. That's in a nice injection moulded case. If a small and simple micro, and or two way comms can be fitted in without going much over that then it obviously doesn't hurt, but really what's the point?
I think what's being discussed here is a far more full featured unit, which to me sounds like time to develop it and $$$$ to buy it - and then you are competing against full on electronics companies with a fair bit more resource to call on.... no one seems to have something out there that is at the inexpensive and simple end of things, so why not jump on that?
Who knows, it could end up built in to the next generation of shoei helmets :-)
Despite the other things I am meant to be doing, this idea keeps lighting my neurons - if bogan doesn't mind, I might start seriously researching this el cheapo method of doing the original task (radar/indicator/whatever warning via wireless LED).
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I see you're familiar with the notion of design qualitythe current design has 8 input lines, and you just plug in what you want to each, and the unit figures out what is plugged in. Some line will then share and LED, for example you can have the shift light double as an oil light. However I can't see myself even using the 4 leds worth.
Course I don't mind if you try the simple route, however I looked at that one first, but didn't manage to find anything cheaper, smaller, and use as little power as the combination I settled on, also these ones have adjustable range. Let me know if you want anything though, I'd be interested in seeing what I overlooked.
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
Forum whore
Can you link me to a helmet mounted indicator light set that is wireless? No I don't want to change helmets, no I don't want the shite that is bluetooth.
Yes, the increase in cost is insignificant, go look at micro controller pricing for yourself.
Of course not, I expect it to work by magic.
There's always a market for more or less sophisticated options. As far as I'm concerned poor people can get fucked.
Right, so we've got a switchable power and an earth... how's that gonna no that an indicator is on? Magic again?
Maybe in dream land where time isn't worth anything.
I disagree, Healtech would've been F'd in the A long ago if there were the case.
Most definitely the ideal.
Definitely, I'll buy one of each if you both produce something.
Hardcore Biker
You don't really do subtle do you......
http://www.comountainrider.com/motor...r-Detector.php
http://www.1stradardetectors.com/pho...lert/index.php
http://www.helmetheadcycle.com/produ...radar-detector
http://www.1stradardetectors.com/las...mmer/index.php
http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/...otorcycle.html
I'm sure there's more, but I'm not surfing google all day. Suffice to say that there are options out there for wireless helmet notification, without changing helmet, and without BT. You might not be prepared to go for BT or a different helmet with this stuff built in, but for others that are there are even more possibilities.
Quick check of one off retail web pricing:
ATTINY13V $ 2.50 (8 pin device) smallest device that could work for this
ATTINY2313 $3.89 (20 pin device) next size device up without going crazy
Around 50% more for the extra pins only - the other functionality is essentially the same. Adding needless cost to a commercial product would need some serious justification.
Magic no, but would it be more appealing to have the instructions say that there is one signal wire, you can connect as many things as you want to that one input, and the LED goes off when any of them trip? Or have pages of instructions on what to connect where for various bikes and sensing options. Of course, it sounds like Bogan has some smarts in mind in that area, as far as multiple inputs auto sensing or similar but still, more wires = more support needed, more instructions, more to go wrong etc.
There is indeed - which is why I'm being devil's advocate in this thread and asking questions. The best solution may well be 2 different products. One thing that would be a shitter though, is to spend time and money developing something very capable (and costly) when it turns out that people actually just wanted the simple version.
I know Bogan isn't seeing it as a chore or a job to do this, hell it's interesting just thinking about on paper it let alone doing it, but if the idea is to be the most use to the most people, you have to ask the questions like features vs cost and time to get it done!
This discussion is mostly more concept than technical detail, but short answer is - drop your assumption that the bike end is powered from the bike. Now you have 2 signal wires to sense stuff.
Not sure what you mean - assembly time? The $10 cost includes assembly. I'm talking about automated assembly here, not putting them together in the garage.
Also, bear in mind that the longer it takes to develop the more you have to hike the sell price to recover the time spent on the design, the time you weren't in the market, etc. Of course those are all n/a if it's not a commercial design.
Dunno what you're on about here sorry!
In the end, part of the point of all of this is to stir up the thinking process - it started with this post asking for a simple indicator reminder light - and that's what i started thinking about - just how simple (therefore cheap, reliable, quick to develop) can it be made?
If Bogan approaches it from the feature end and I approach from the low cost end, there's got to be squillions to be made all round, surely? ;-)
Forum whore
I wanted an answer with specifics, it's only fair I make that clear?
Does not connect to indicators.
Does not connect to indicators.
Does not connect to indicators.
Does not connect to indicators.
Now that's getting closer... one assumes you could nigger it into an indicator given enough fucking around, but I'm not sure I want that light strip in my vision
You probably shouldn't hassle my delivery if you can't deliver yourself. Apparently even if I make it quite clear,
you still swing and miss. Fucking radar detector shit ignores how we came to this thread in the first place, which is primarily an indicator warning device that could be expanded further.Can you link me to a helmet mounted indicator light set that is wireless?
Where, where are these fucking options you keep teasing me with. Either find something valid or fuck off, we're on to the red rep next
50% increase in the cost of one component. That is not a 50% increase in cost for the device.
The rest I just deleted, it's a waste of my time. MAKE SOMETHING DAMN YOU.
Hardcore Biker
The "subtle" comment was referring to...well, just read your post above!
You come across as angry, arrogant, demanding and whiney - we're all just having a discussion here, no one else is giving themselves a stroke FFS!
As an example - I'm fully prepared to say whoops - I misread your question "Can you link me to a helmet mounted indicator light set that is wireless?" as meaning an "indicator" i.e. the indicator LED that will come on in your helmet to indicate to you that the radar has gone off. My bad, I admit it, easy as that.
However - that did get me thinking that there's no reason you couldn't modify a system that flashes an LED when it gets an audio signal (i.e. radar) so that it works off the indicators. Depends if the benefits of the cheapest product in those links i gave you plus some mods is worth the cost vs another solution which will be available in future.
As for the light strip - the obvious intention was that you use a small indicator LED in it's place or cut off all but one of the LEDs on the light strip or something like that.
See, the product you want is not yet available. You could get what you want by modding something that exists, or by waiting till exactly what you DO want comes about. You either want it bad enough to get out the number 8 wire, or you don't.
You're right - radar detector warning wasn't the original requirement, but as the discussion has progressed, it has been asked for, and so the solutions are valid for others that may be reading along.
Re the increase in micro cost - it's the either the costliest component or the second costliest in the design, so a 50% increase in it's price is a big deal.
"The rest I just deleted, it's a waste of my time. MAKE SOMETHING DAMN YOU."
Your loss - the rest of us are having a good discussion! Make something? Tell ya what, I might just make exaclty what you wanted in the first post - i.e. remote indicator reminder.
How much would you pay?
When do you want it done by?
What physical size are you happy with?
Are there extra features you're going to want, now that you are thinking about it?
hey....this seems suspiciously like what the thread is discussing! Maybe a poll or two is needed.
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