Cornering - apex - explain?

[MSTRS:Me]

This is what you've been implying all the time,I've just been pulling you up on it.Now you admit it's not the most important.And it's certainly nowhere in my sights for an obscured and unknown corner...in such a case the VP is well into the range of safety,not even worth thinking about.

Did you miss this bit?

But I will maintain it is THE most important of everything a rider needs to consider when on a road with semi-obscured corners.

Of course, it's importance diminishes as your speed drops. IF your speed was ever such that it was important in the first place.

We're nitpicking over a minor detail....there are any number of things we can and do use to help us safely negotiate a road. If I were to put them on a list in order of importance, one would be at the top. That one would be the VP (ie that point where I cannot see the road anymore). Obviously your list would be in a different order.
Either way, we would both adjust our speed to allow for the visible distance available in which to stop or otherwise respond to (most) other threats.

[MSTRS:Me]

Same corner from the opposite direction (after the speed sign was erected).

Your photos capture the gradient way better than mine.
Those advisory signs only went in because I complained to the Te Kuiti DC. Their roading engineer was aghast that there were none to start with!

[HenryDorsetCase]

would the correct answer be 'in line with the caravan/truck body coming the other way' ?

you've just given me flashback to the "wall of white" incident one day on the way to akaroa. just trundling alont, about four corners from the top, come round a corner and all I can see is a wall of white: some guy in a big 4wd towing a HUGE boat taking the classic "delayed turn in" line. He had both of the wheels of the 4wd in my line, and the boat was significantly wider than the truck.

You know that bit in Mad Max (I think) 2 when the dude realises he is about to go under the front of the truck at speed, and the camera cuts to the close up shot of his eyes in his helmet, and they get really big..? yeah, like that.

I had room to miss the boat, but thats one of the reasons I dont try and ride fast on the road anymore. You can be the worlds best rider but some fucker will always come along and fuck it up for you

[george formby]

you've just given me flashback to the "wall of white" incident one day on the way to akaroa. just trundling alont, about four corners from the top, come round a corner and all I can see is a wall of white: some guy in a big 4wd towing a HUGE boat taking the classic "delayed turn in" line. He had both of the wheels of the 4wd in my line, and the boat was significantly wider than the truck.

You know that bit in Mad Max (I think) 2 when the dude realises he is about to go under the front of the truck at speed, and the camera cuts to the close up shot of his eyes in his helmet, and they get really big..? yeah, like that.

I had room to miss the boat, but thats one of the reasons I dont try and ride fast on the road anymore. You can be the worlds best rider but some fucker will always come along and fuck it up for you

I'm anal about my lines for the same reason. The road from the Okiato ferry out to Rawhiti ( Old Russell Road ) is narrow & has 15k corners with a lot of camper vans & people towing boats coming at you. I use every inch of road I can to see round the corner.

[Winston001]

Excellent discussion chaps and chapesses, much appreciated. The Vanishing Point (which I learned from KB) works for me but I confess it's taking time to overcome years of cutting into corners. All good.

[The Stranger:Me]

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

The thread is cornering - apex - explain.
MSTRS was sticking to topic. He didn't cover a fraction of the good habits or traits that come into good road craft - mentor or not.
The point of the thread was apex.
What if there is a pot hole or squished possum smack on apex? He didn't cover that one either (but co-incidentally you will see it sooner as it enters the VP if you are looking there).

If you wish to cover road craft in detail why not start a thread on the subject? But it does sound awfully like straightening tea towels to me.

[Metastable]

Just a quick FYI and this can even apply in "perfect conditions" while........ riding on a track, where you have seen the corner before, there is excellent visibility, and it is only a simple 90 degree corner... and riders still run wide on the exit, because they have turned in too soon. Even on the track, one needs to be patient. This can often happen as the speed goes up and your trajectory widens and it can catch people out....

...... but at the same time don't turn in too late as I did on my last trackday and had to MotoX about 500 m to the opposite side of the track.

Joking aside, the last bit shouldn't be important on the street, because you really shouldn't be going that fast.... but turning in too soon is always a problem.

[MSTRS:Me]

Just a quick FYI and this can even apply in "perfect conditions" while........ riding on a track, where you have seen the corner before, there is excellent visibility, and it is only a simple 90 degree corner... and riders still run wide on the exit, because they have turned in too soon. Even on the track, one needs to be patient. This can often happen as the speed goes up and your trajectory widens and it can catch people out....
.... but turning in too soon is always a problem.

Thanks for coming back to this point....cause and effect.

I call the aftermath of an early tip in the slingshot effect. In this instance, it isn't a kick in the pants to help you on down the road, but rather OFF the road.

When you tip in early, you also get on the gas early, and this commits you to a line that in essence creates second corner, one with a tightening radius. So you are forced to tip in again. You may also have reflexively shut your throttle when you realised things were going wrong. This unsettles the bike and exacerbates the drift to the outside.
It's not pretty and can be downright dangerous.

[MSTRS:Me]

...the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

Been thinking about this. And I agree. Good roadcraft is a mix of basic through to advanced skills. At it's most basic, it is being able to stay upright and control the bike. Only then do the other skills come into play.
What I can't understand is why you would put the VP in the advanced category. The VP is simply the point where we can no longer see the road ahead. Surely the visible road ahead is THE most important thing of all the stuff we need to be aware of? After all, it and it's immediate environs contain what we are about to negotiate. So by scanning the VP, we are in a position to adjust for hazards as they come into view, before they are a problem. Away from built-up areas and major highways, using it's relative position to us is one of the most basic tools we have for determining an appropriate speed. Of course, this speed may vary depending on ability and how willing a rider is to risk disaster.
Approaching a corner as near to the outside as is possible/safe and delaying tip-in/late apexing is the only way to keep the VP as far in front as we can, giving us time to adjust speed or lane position.

[george formby]

Been thinking about this. And I agree. Good roadcraft is a mix of basic through to advanced skills. At it's most basic, it is being able to stay upright and control the bike. Only then do the other skills come into play.
What I can't understand is why you would put the VP in the advanced category. The VP is simply the point where we can no longer see the road ahead. Surely the visible road ahead is THE most important thing of all the stuff we need to be aware of? After all, it and it's immediate environs contain what we are about to negotiate. So by scanning the VP, we are in a position to adjust for hazards as they come into view, before they are a problem. Away from built-up areas and major highways, using it's relative position to us is one of the most basic tools we have for determining an appropriate speed. Of course, this speed may vary depending on ability and how willing a rider is to risk disaster.
Approaching a corner as near to the outside as is possible/safe and delaying tip-in/late apexing is the only way to keep the VP as far in front as we can, giving us time to adjust speed or lane position.

The advanced comment has given me a pause for thought too. Been riding that long, most of the time my decisions & observations are second nature. It was taught to me as a tool to be used on unfamiliar roads to increase my safety margin, one part of many clues. The VP is usually peripheral for me

I think novice riders should be made aware of it but the initial focus is still bike control, correct speed & road position.
Fixating on the VP would be a hazard in it's own right.

[MSTRS:Me]

The advanced comment has given me a pause for thought too. Been riding that long, most of the time my decisions & observations are second nature. It was taught to me as a tool to be used on unfamiliar roads to increase my safety margin, one part of many clues. The VP is usually peripheral for me

Obviously there is a point in the visible road in front of us, beyond which it is counter-productive to be watching. ie - too far ahead to be relevant (yet). But assuming that the road is a bit twisty, the VP is close enough to assume great importance. Heard the saying "Look where you are going, because you'll go where you're looking'? This applies to staying on the road ahead in general terms, but can be equally applied to the VP. This is where your focus needs to be, because this is where you are going to be. Your peripheral vision should take care of the parts in between and to the sides. Since you've already 'seen' them due to your focus point, your brain has taken note and prioritised the importance of what it saw, allowing you time to adjust your speed or lane position without having to look at it again. If it's seen something of real importance, could be a loose sheep on the verge, you have time to take a second look (focus) to re-adjust what you are doing to safely pass/avoid the hazard.
Take a look at racers midcorner...note where their heads/eyes are pointing. Yes, it's slightly different on the track due to the greater speeds and the more open nature of the visibility, but the reason is much the same...look where you are going to be long before you get there.
It's the same as when you are behind 2 or more vehicles. Do you watch the one directly in front - or the one in front of that? I'll explain, or argue the point, if your answer is 'wrong'...

I think novice riders should be made aware of it but the initial focus is still bike control, correct speed & road position.

How do you garner clues as to a 'correct' speed if not from what the clear distance ahead is? This is assuming there are no other reasons for curtailing that speed.

Fixating on the VP would be a hazard in it's own right.

Fixating on anything is a hazard...scan all the time, but keep your primary focus as far ahead as you can

[george formby]

All relevant Mstrs.

Your example with the two cars, I'm looking ahead of both to see where the road is going & watching the cars for indications of braking, turning off etc & things ahead of them which may cause this.

What I mean by the VP being peripheral is at any given time I'm weighing up things like road surface, sheep, etc & act on the VP as it moves back & forth, it does not maintain my focus but I could see a novice rider over thinking it, if it was over emphasized in tuition.

Just like a racer I physically look as far ahead as I can but had to "learn" how to avoid fixation. Visited the scenery a few times as a yoof looking at what I was going to hit rather than an exit.

The last bit is a stumper. Obviously for me the VP is always their but it is so long since I was taught to ride I'm not sure if it is more important than a safe road position for a new rider. If they are in the right place on the road & have maximum visibility should they start by traveling at a speed which allows them to hold the safest line with soft apexes (adjusting speed to stay just left or right of center lane) or initially be taught how to use the VP to dictate speed & use the whole lane?

I know this is a moot point, just thinking out loud how I would personally go about getting somebody rolling safely & I'm not really any further ahead.

I have demonstrated the VP to my girlfriend in a car, she could not understand how I could enter a corner safely if I was traveling faster than she would, nor be able to accelerate while still "in" the corner. It was a revelation for her.

[MSTRS:Me]

Your example with the two cars, I'm looking ahead of both to see where the road is going & watching the cars for indications of braking, turning off etc & things ahead of them which may cause this.

Correct. Your primary focus is ahead of the cars, letting your peripheral vision deal with them, coupled with repetitive direct focus on one or other of the cars to confirm what your peripheral has been telling you. The car directly in front of you is the one you are likely to hit if it slows or stops, but the one in front of that one will likely give you an earlier warning of what the one between you is likely to do. Which means you can react at the same time as the one directly in front, giving you a greater safety margin. Every situation being somewhat unique, maybe it's a judgement call as to which car is more important, overall.

What I mean by the VP being peripheral is at any given time I'm weighing up things like road surface, sheep, etc & act on the VP as it moves back & forth, it does not maintain my focus but I could see a novice rider over thinking it, if it was over emphasized in tuition.

I wouldn't be tutoring a novice on VP, precisely. Rather I would be concentrating on stressing the importance of travelling at speed/s appropriate to their ability to control the bike and react to hazards. Obviously those speeds would be much slower than someone with more experience. Newbies have enough to deal with, without getting too technical.

Just like a racer I physically look as far ahead as I can but had to "learn" how to avoid fixation. Visited the scenery a few times as a yoof looking at what I was going to hit rather than an exit.

So you needed the tactile method of learning to look where you (wanted to) go?
Not alone, mate. I had one such lesson in looking where I was going...and one in adjusting braking distance to allow for the extra weight of a pillion.

The last bit is a stumper. Obviously for me the VP is always their but it is so long since I was taught to ride I'm not sure if it is more important than a safe road position for a new rider. If they are in the right place on the road & have maximum visibility should they start by traveling at a speed which allows them to hold the safest line with soft apexes (adjusting speed to stay just left or right of center lane) or initially be taught how to use the VP to dictate speed & use the whole lane?

I know this is a moot point, just thinking out loud how I would personally go about getting somebody rolling safely & I'm not really any further ahead.

I always start with using late tip-in/apex. Then correct lane position to set up for corners becomes automatic right from the start. Somehow the apex/exit follows naturally. As they gain in confidence, they can incrementally increase their speed without having to relearn lines. All they have to do differently is lean a bit more.
Using the VP as a speed control method follows on from that point.

I have demonstrated the VP to my girlfriend in a car, she could not understand how I could enter a corner safely if I was traveling faster than she would, nor be able to accelerate while still "in" the corner. It was a revelation for her.

It's all in the teaching. Not many are taught to drive. Just what to do to get a licence.

[stormerUK]

CORNERING

Cornering is what biking is all about – It’s the activity we enjoy a lot and is probably the most rewarding experience when we get it right. Many riders however, seem to come to grief by getting it wrong; as accident statistics seem to indicate.
Let us look at cornering and apply the system of motorcycle control as described in Roadcraft.
The System – Information – Position – Speed – Gear – Acceleration
What do we need to know:
Where does the road go next?
How sharp is the bend?
How far can I see ahead clearly?
What is the road surface like?
What dangers could there be?
Can I stop safely if necessary?
Getting the approach to a bend right is vital and makes cornering safer.
Approaching a bend – Information – look for all the clues – use extended forward observations – can you see where the road goes next? What’s behind as we prepare – know your Highway Code to understand signs; road markings and chevrons etc. Take into account the road surface and camber. Consider the actions of the traffic ahead – are they braking? How fast are oncoming vehicles travelling when exiting the bend? Consider what hidden dangers may lurk ahead just out of view – junctions, slower vehicles, pedestrians, cyclists, horses etc.
Limit point – the furthest point we can see the road surface ahead where the verges appear to converge. As we approach does that point remain static or is it moving away already?
Guide – while the limit point remains static we should be slowing down. If its moving away we can go through the bend at that same speed.
By using the limit point we can assess the tightness of the bend and have a guide to the safe speed to be at when we reach the entry point to the bend. Therefore, on a tighter bend the limit point will remain static longer – we will be reducing speed for longer and should have slowed down more before the entry point, while bearing in mind the golden rule – always be able to stop safely in the distance you can see to be clear (on your own side of the road).
Entry point – where you start to turn the bike into the bend.
Guide – this will be the slowest point of the bend with maximum safe forward view
So using the system, we need to be in the correct position for maximum forward view while considering stability and grip and using safety as the overriding rule. The optimum line must be conceded if that could bring us into conflict with oncoming vehicles or mean riding over gravel or potholes for instance.
We need to be at the correct speed by using all the information, good forward observations and limit point analysis. We need to be in the correct gear for best engine response to allow some speed adjustment with sensitive throttle control in the bend and the bike should be well settled before we reach the entry point, and we should be relaxed.
Guide – most bikes will give good response at about ½ way up the rev range
This response will help the bike to turn and allow better control – holding a wide smooth line through the bend. Do not apex the bend unless you have a clear view well ahead, and there is an advantage to be gained.
Counter steering – positive steering input by applying pressure to the bars is required to get the bike from upright to the correct lean angle for the corner. The tighter the bend or the higher the approach speed will determine the amount of force required to get the bike to turn at the entry point with the objective of getting the bike into the desired attitude in one movement and then controlling the bike on the throttle through the rest of the bend. You already do this or the bike wouldn’t turn, but a conscious effort at the correct moment is very effective, and necessary when dealing with a series of bends or an island where we require the bike to go from one side to the other and back again in a smooth controlled manner.
Exit point – look for the end of the bend where the road straightens out. The end of a solid white line gives us a clue, and as the forward view opens up chase the limit point (acceleration) as it moves away bringing the bike to the desired road position again.
The way we deal with each bend should not be taken in isolation but as part of the overall riding plan. Good forward planning will help us link hazards and give a smoother flowing line.
Control the fear – use your head! Cornering on a bike is not a natural activity – just the opposite in fact! If we think we’re going too quickly for a particular bend our natural reaction will be to tense up, grab for the brake and target fixate on the perceived danger. The bike will want to stand up and go where we are looking, this is our survival instinct taking over. To corner safely and effectively we must do just the opposite of what our instinct tells us to do. We must relax and look away from the danger to where we actually want the bike to go. A positive push on the bars is required while applying some power. This technique requires correct understanding and enough practice to make it second nature, so that when a ‘moment’ occurs we will have the presence of mind to use the technique confidently. If we allow the fear factor to take over things will probably go wrong, but by applying the correct technique we should get round the bend successfully. We tend to be the limiting factor as the modern bike is a very capable machine.
Guide – so in essence we turn the bike positively, look where we want to go, and apply some power to offset the reduction in speed caused by turning the bike, and drive through the bend smoothly on an opening throttle
Getting a series of bends right is a great feeling and is reason enough to make every effort to improve our cornering skills.

[Katman]

What a great post. Pity it's in Survival Skills where so few KBers ever bother to venture.

Far too many motorcyclists seem to think corners are nothing more than 'Point & Squirt'.