General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Ender EnZed]

Katman believes that you should have known the tractor might be, and ridden accordingly.

I do know there might be a tractor around every corner. I'm sure you do as well.

Works perfectly too, until you consider that if we take that approach, we would only be able to sit on our bikes in the garage making engine noises.

Perhaps, however I suspect a great many accidents of this type occur after people enter corners with no thought to what might be around the other side.

There does need to be more thought going into most peoples riding, I agree with Katman on that front. There should also be an attitude shift in how most crashes are dealt with, to help speed that along.

But should we stop being sympathetic to people who have made a mistake? I don't think so. It won't help. To offer assistance, along with sound advice on where the rider and all other riders familiar with the crash, goes further to lower the chances of repeat incidents than yelling at them all.

The sympathy needs to be balanced with reality.

[schrodingers cat]

Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

I'm not sure this is an approved method of flight training.

Why isn't learning to ride/drive more in line with learning to fly a light aircraft?

[Katman]

Why isn't learning to ride/drive more in line with learning to fly a light aircraft?

Because then idiots would have to walk.

[schrodingers cat]

Because then idiots would have to walk.

YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG KATMAN!


They could take the bus or steal a bicycle

[Ocean1]

You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

Not quite, either...
It's true that we tend to make mistakes. If we learn from them - and survive - great. But even if we never make the same mistake twice, if we keep on making semi-continuous mistakes, the outcome is fairly obvious.
There is also some truth in the idea that you'll never improve if you don't try. And if you're not 'falling off', you're not trying. Simple, effective, and sometimes fatal.
Many mistakes are completely avoidable, by using some nous. That seems quite difficult for some people.

No, he's 100% correct. Learning absolutely requires mistakes to be made. In fact accelerated learning techniques mostly involve provoking mistakes in a (hopefully) more benign environment. He's particularly on target with the continuously fucking up thing. The “never make the same mistake twice” thing isn’t relevant, there’s so many combinations of factors you’re quite literally never in the same situation twice. Everything revolves around knowing where the limits are as closely as possible, all the time, in as many circumstances as possible. The more often you encounter symptoms indicating you're close to the edge of control the more data you’ll have to interpolate through holes in your experience and the better rider you'll be. Those familiar with control technology will recognise this as a typical negative feedback system.

None of this behaviour is optional or in any way voluntary, it’s hard wired into your brain, regardless of what you’re learning. It really is that simple, and more particularly it’s the potential consequences of those fuckups that obviously make learning to ride fucking dangerous. So dangerous, in fact that I did everything I could to prevent my kids riding, including foregoing riding anything myself for a couple of decades. There's a couple of things I know of that you can do to minimise the risk inherent in learning to ride. You can learn by proxy, somewhat, which means taking advantage of other peoples fuckups via both reading about / watching “correct” techniques and by formal tuition. You can also make your fuckups on a dirt bike where the consequences of finding that edge are less severe. Usually.

The tuition thing works, but more slowly than making your own fuckups at detail level. You can’t beat having a good teacher follow you around a muddy field for a couple of hours. It seems to me that more people now learn to ride on the road. It’s unfortunate that not only are there fewer places to fuck up on a cheap dirt bike nowadays but there seems to be limited opportunities to have someone teach you how.

To the point. Attempting to castigate any rider, far less a learner for making mistakes is nonsensical, we’re all making alterations to our riding techniques more or less continuously, based on our slowly improving understanding of just where those limits are. Attempting to blame a rider who’s involved in an accident isn’t just poor form, it’s a denial of the mechanism that enables us to learn in the first place. As for accepting responsibility for an accident... firstly, the only person who MAY know what the rider’s level of culpability might be is the rider himself. Secondly, not only is that knowledge of little value to anyone else but it’s none of their business.

[Tink]

YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG KATMAN!


They could take the bus or steal a bicycle

hehe! I can't be bothered reading the last 7 pages... cause I have better things to do with my time... my point about being accountable still stands... and just to fluff it up a bit... why should the tax payer/ACC have to pay for the dude that is not accountable and doesn't give a shit. Oh life is so much fun because of the idiots..

I ride my bike like a nanna, and I am accountable for every swear word that comes out my mouth.. oops thats when I am on my pedal powered bike.

[Katman]

Secondly, not only is that knowledge of little value to anyone else but it’s none of their business.

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become other's business.

[Drew]

It would be a little retarded to blindly assume that a tractor won't be on a country road, wouldn't it Drew?
Of course it would be stupid to assume that there wouldn't be a tractor around a blind turn on a country road. But how slow should you go around every turn? Should we ride like there is something on every turn, when our experience says it's more likely not to be there?

If sitting on your bike in the garage making engine noises is the only way you can feel safe on a motorcycle, best you stay there.
You're clever, I'll give you that. You can twist anything I say to try and piss me off. Usually works too.

I never said I only feel safe in the garage on my bike.

I do know there might be a tractor around every corner. I'm sure you do as well. As above.



Perhaps, however I suspect a great many accidents of this type occur after people enter corners with no thought to what might be around the other side. Again, as above.




The sympathy needs to be balanced with reality.

Oh right. Now we need to measure our sympathy out. People are who they are, many walk around with their head in the clouds, and will not look at the facts of anything before forking out. Weather that be sympathy or whatever.

I'm a realist though. I wont sink the boot and tell someone they aren't worth my effort, but I'll certainly refrain from giving them anything.

We don't all need to be preached to by the likes of you two! Infact, it has very little positive effect on most people. Don't get me wrong, the cloud heads fuck me off just as much, but they generally don't wank on the way you are.

I can't figure out how to turn on normal coloured writing after typing in the quote box like that.

[Katman]

You're clever, I'll give you that. You can twist anything I say to try and piss me off. Usually works too.

To be fair Drew, I can't take all the credit.

You just make it far too easy.

[Drew]

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become others business.

Yip, it's your business to either deal with it, or leave the fraternity.

It isn't your business to preach safety to bikers, you're a fuckin mechanic. It could be your business but I'll wager it'd go broke in a month the way you talk to people on the matter.

[Ocean1]

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become others business.

The fact that ACC use distorted accident stat's to justify charging you more isn't any particular person's fault. If you feel hard dome by feel free to blame the real culprit: the government. More particularly ACC revenue policy.

[Katman]

The fact that ACC use distorted accident stat's to justify charging you more isn't any particular person's fault.

That's if you believe they truly are distorted.

My experience of 30 years of motorcycling suggests they're not too far off the truth.

[Oblivion]

The fact that ACC use distorted accident stat's to justify charging you more isn't any particular person's fault. If you feel hard dome by feel free to blame the real culprit: the government. More particularly ACC revenue policy.

Wallets screaming is music to their ears you know

Someone needs to give them a good kick in the ass.

[Ocean1]

That's if you believe they truly are distorted.

My experience of 30 years of motorcycling suggests they're not too far off the truth.

I believe ACC charges in general are pretty reasonable for what you get, but your opinion on how they gather that isn't relevant. Even if you believe it's OK to charge one person more because he's a higher risk, (and I do) the current policy is neither fair or accurate.

[The Stranger:Me]

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become others business.

That pretty much makes the vast majority of people my business. I pay for dole bludgers, fat fucks, smokers and alcoholics.
I really don't mind the occasional motorcyclists getting something back.