General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Katman]

Hey KM? Do you detect a note of desperation on the part of some here....

Just a note???

It sounds more like a whole symphony.

[skippa1]

Just a note???

It sounds more like a whole symphony.

Ok, I will bite.....just one more time. You are siding with Katman and I am desperate?

[Katman]

You are siding with Katman?

Yeah, I usually tend to.

[Edbear]

Yeah, I usually tend to.

Is that really wise...?

[Maha]

Is that really wise...?

Please dont, he'll start another inane poll about how wise do people think he is...

[avgas]

I keep hearing people say 'humans are only human and humans make mistakes - get over it'.

It begs the question, what is an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is wiping out on a corner at 180kph an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is fucking up a wheelstand and putting yourself in hospital an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is losing half the skin off your leg from wearing shorts when you fall off an honest/acceptable mistake?

I would classify something like a learner rider coming to grief from missing a gear change as an honest/acceptable mistake.

Yep.
Got another term for them that doesn't translate to the word mistake.

You forget that an honest mistake can still be a stupid one.
Mistake means that you have partial ownership of the fuck up.......which from recall was at start down the path of what you were after......

Before you reply to this, have a think - what was the last mistake that you made in anything.......did you know it could happen before it happened?

Mistake are a necessary evil - without them we don't get a reality check. I hope this is your reality check.

Change tact and put your argument forward again with a different angle. I agree with your sentiment, and your key point........but sometime you have as much direction as a 8 year old driving a lorry.

[R-Soul]

There is plenty of truth in this. Personal choice plays a huge part also. The choice to ride slightly over and above our potential is up to the individual and not for others to judge. This is all about being individuals. It's not up to the rest of us to throw stones at everyone who takes a spill. I'm sure they don't go out there to do it on purpose.

yes, thats a choice for you to make individually - but then dont play the victim after the fact when you dont have sufficent buffer zone for safety:

"It was unavoidable circumstances and completely that dog's fault for running out in front of me."

Because it will be a stick that you cut for your own back, by not riding to the standards of care required for that level of risk (regardless of legal or moral fault).

[MSTRS:Me]

yes, thats a choice for you to make individually - but then dont play the victim after the fact when you dont have sufficent buffer zone for safety:

"It was unavoidable circumstances and completely that dog's fault for running out in front of me."

Because it will be a stick that you cut for your own back, by not riding to the standards of care required for that level of risk (regardless of legal or moral fault).

What a good thing you said that. If I'd posted it, he (and his mate) would think I meant something else.

[Katman]

You forget that an honest mistake can still be a stupid one.

There's also a difference between a stupid mistake and one that stems from stupidity.

Should mistakes that stem from stupidity or recklessness be considered honest/acceptable mistakes?

An example - if an apprentice mechanic forgets to tighten a sump plug, is that an honest/acceptable mistake? I feel it possibly is - as long as the mistake is not repeated. (The mechanic would still get a bollocking however).

Now what if that mechanic is stoned and forgets to tighten the sump plug? Is that an honest/acceptable mistake? And what if they then repeat the mistake some time later?

[Grubber]

yes, thats a choice for you to make individually - but then dont play the victim after the fact when you dont have sufficent buffer zone for safety:

"It was unavoidable circumstances and completely that dog's fault for running out in front of me."

Because it will be a stick that you cut for your own back, by not riding to the standards of care required for that level of risk (regardless of legal or moral fault).

Agree to a point. This particular dog may just not left you with too much of a margin, if you get my point.
I know when i crashed i didn't feel i was any sort of victim, just thought "bugger" really.
I think i was more concerned for the woman in the 4x4. Would hate to be the person responsible for someone else's injuries, my fault or NOT.Not really that sure if too many walk around feeling they are a victim in most cases, more just a bit pissed off really. Such is life i reckon.

[Edbear]

There's also a difference between a stupid mistake and one that stems from stupidity.

Should mistakes that stem from stupidity or recklessness be considered honest/acceptable mistakes?

An example - if a mechanic forgets to tighten a sump plug, is that an honest/acceptable mistake? I feel it possibly is - as long as the mistake is not repeated.

Now what if the mechanic is stoned and forgets to tighten the sump plug? Is that an honest/acceptable mistake? What if they then repeat the mistake?

Being human we will make mistakes, it is inevitable if not desirable, no matter how careful we may normally be. And despite learning from our mistakes, ie: we recognise how it was made and make changes in order not to do it again, we may very well repeat it. We aren't machines, unfortunately. So at what point does it change from honest/acceptable in the context you mean here, and unacceptable?

How does one judge, for example when it's time for a person to quit doing what they are doing because they have become a danger? I feel the answer is more subjective than objective.

The stoned mechanic is never acceptable.

[Grubber]

There's also a difference between a stupid mistake and one that stems from stupidity.

Should mistakes that stem from stupidity or recklessness be considered honest/acceptable mistakes?

An example - if an apprentice mechanic forgets to tighten a sump plug, is that an honest/acceptable mistake? I feel it possibly is - as long as the mistake is not repeated.

Now what if that mechanic is stoned and forgets to tighten the sump plug? Is that an honest/acceptable mistake? And what if they then repeat the mistake some time later?

In the first instance, the guy should be instructed to make a must do list when replacing parts.
THe 2nd one should be given marching orders right there and then as well as the phone number for rehab and also the notion that he will have your support 100% while doing rehab. Also he should have the knowledge that he will be excepted back when he has made a full recovery so to speak.

BUT, both should be treated as humans that make errors of judgement from time to time.

If one was to murder one of my kids on the other hand, i would be making the judgement.

[Katman]

How does one judge, for example when it's time for a person to quit doing what they are doing because they have become a danger? I feel the answer is more subjective than objective.

The stoned mechanic is never acceptable.

And that's my point Ed.

Even you seem to figure that there's a line between acceptable and unacceptable.

I'm just wondering out loud where that line lies when it comes to our behaviour on motorcycles.

[Katman]

Also he should have the knowledge that he will be excepted back when he has made a full recovery so to speak.

Like fuck.

[Grubber]

Being human we will make mistakes, it is inevitable if not desirable, no matter how careful we may normally be. And despite learning from our mistakes, ie: we recognise how it was made and make changes in order not to do it again, we may very well repeat it. We aren't machines, unfortunately. So at what point does it change from honest/acceptable in the context you mean here, and unacceptable?

How does one judge, for example when it's time for a person to quit doing what they are doing because they have become a danger? I feel the answer is more subjective than objective.

The stoned mechanic is never acceptable.

Splendid reply. Think you have got it nutted out pretty well. Bit too much of a cloudy issue to be fair. I think that line gets drawn through instinct. Gut feeling maybe tells you were that mark lies at any given time.