Normal to have fine bits of metal in oil filter?

[crfchick]

I changed my oil and oil filter over the weekend and noticed some fine metal particles in the oil filter. Is this normal??
This is after only one ride since the last oil change, since the last lot of oil looked like some water had gotten into it somehow so I wanted to be sure to flush it! When I changed the oil filter the first time, I noticed that the previous owner had not replaced the spring to hold the oil filter in place, so I'm wondering if this new oil filter was working double time, now that it's positioned in the right place...
The bike has also become a bit harder to start (but wondered if that was just this colder weather..)

[cbfb]

Doesn't sound good to me. Is the bike making any unusual noise? Check with a strong magnet to see whether they're ferrous. If it were me I'd be taking the sump off and seeing if there's anything inside. Also I personally would advise not riding it until you've discovered the source of the shrapnel.

Also did you get to the bottom of the water in the oil? Again that is a worry and should be investigated further before riding again, if it hasn't already been sorted out. Are you losing coolant? What is your compression like? Just wondering about the head gasket, could also explain having shit in the oil.

How long have you had the bike? Has it been fine up till now?

Anything else about the history of the bike or what it's doing currently that could give more clues? However obvious it might seem maybe it would help.

[crfchick]

Thanks for the advise! And I agree, no way am I riding it until I know what the (potential) problem is!
The bike hasn't been making any unusual noises and has been running smoothly. I've only had it a few months and it hasn't done all that many hours. It's only recently started being hard to start and I haven't figured out how the water got in the oil either, I haven't drowned the bike at all but just hoped that the water was from a bit of splashback...hmmm.
Compression seems ok to me (not too hard or soft), although at times the kickstart seems locked in place and doesn't want to go down.
The oil was pretty murky again at this oil change too, which is a worry, although not milky like before.

Doesn't sound good to me. Is the bike making any unusual noise? Check with a strong magnet to see whether they're ferrous. If it were me I'd be taking the sump off and seeing if there's anything inside. Also I personally would advise not riding it until you've discovered the source of the shrapnel.

Also did you get to the bottom of the water in the oil? Again that is a worry and should be investigated further before riding again, if it hasn't already been sorted out. Are you losing coolant? What is your compression like? Just wondering about the head gasket, could also explain having shit in the oil.

How long have you had the bike? Has it been fine up till now?

Anything else about the history of the bike or what it's doing currently that could give more clues? However obvious it might seem maybe it would help.

[cbfb]

Thanks for the advise! And I agree, no way am I riding it until I know what the (potential) problem is!
The bike hasn't been making any unusual noises and has been running smoothly. I've only had it a few months and it hasn't done all that many hours. It's only recently started being hard to start and I haven't figured out how the water got in the oil either, I haven't drowned the bike at all but just hoped that the water was from a bit of splashback...hmmm.
Compression seems ok to me (not too hard or soft), although at times the kickstart seems locked in place and doesn't want to go down.
The oil was pretty murky again at this oil change too, which is a worry, although not milky like before.

No unusual noises = good.

Water getting in via the air filter cause of drowning, while bad, should not get through to the crankcase unless damage occurs to the bore, piston or rings (I believe this is true, I may be wrong as I've not experienced it, hopefully someone will correct me if so). Milky oil is a common symptom of head gasket failure though.

When you say the oil was murky, can you describe it? Is this the oil that only ran once since the last change?

As for the kick start problems, that could be a number of things.

When I say check the compression, I meant can you get hold of a compression tester and get a reading? That would mean a lot to the folks on here, very useful diagnostic tool. I would strongly recommend starting with this and working your way from there. Shame you're in Welly, I'm a bit far away to lend you mine, but there may well be someone on here who can sort you out with one.

[Katman]

Milky oil is a common symptom of head gasket failure though.

Or more likely, a leaking water pump seal.

[crfchick]

Yes, this was the oil that had only been flushed though once (on a trail ride - in hindsight I should have flushed it through by running it in the garage and then dumped it straight away but I thought it would be ok because the 1st lot of oil wasn't milky, just a bit grey coloured...!).
This time the oil wasn't grey but it definately looked fairly black already and not that nice golden oil colour.
And the bike isn't using much coolant, I have barely needed to top it up.
You have given me a lot ideas to ponder over, thank you.

[cbfb]

Yes, this was the oil that had only been flushed though once (on a trail ride - in hindsight I should have flushed it through by running it in the garage and then dumped it straight away but I thought it would be ok because the 1st lot of oil wasn't milky, just a bit grey coloured...!).
This time the oil wasn't grey but it definately looked fairly black already and not that nice golden oil colour.
And the bike isn't using much coolant, I have barely needed to top it up.
You have given me a lot ideas to ponder over, thank you.

Hmmm, would like to have a look at that oil, hard to tell without seeing it. If the coolant is not going down and the engine is definitely more grey than milky, I would definitely check those particles with a magnet, can give a bit more idea. And you can get the oil analysed for coolant and type of metal etc.

[noobi]

Oil goes black from it being in contact with the clutch plates, it fouls up and turns black.
More than likely the fine metal particles are from the clutch plates wearing ( which is perfectly normal on a dirt bike).
There is no sump to drop off so you cant do that to quickly check the engine, only equivalent is to split the cases.
Unless the oil was really milky its unlikely to be coming from the bike, more likely is that it sucked some water in through the breather hose, ie if you stalled in or around water, and had to restart.
If it were me, I would be putting in new oil, then running the bike for 5 or 10 minutes, then dropping the oil, if its not milky then its unlikely to be internal, like I said.
If it is milky again, then I would proceed with further inspection of head gasket or water pump.

But back to the OP, yes it is normal to have fine metallic magnetic particles in the oil/filter, does the sump plug not have a magnet on it?

[Teava]

Oil goes black from it being in contact with the clutch plates, it fouls up and turns black.
More than likely the fine metal particles are from the clutch plates wearing ( which is perfectly normal on a dirt bike).
There is no sump to drop off so you cant do that to quickly check the engine, only equivalent is to split the cases.
Unless the oil was really milky its unlikely to be coming from the bike, more likely is that it sucked some water in through the breather hose, ie if you stalled in or around water, and had to restart.
If it were me, I would be putting in new oil, then running the bike for 5 or 10 minutes, then dropping the oil, if its not milky then its unlikely to be internal, like I said.
If it is milky again, then I would proceed with further inspection of head gasket or water pump.

But back to the OP, yes it is normal to have fine metallic particles in the oil/filter, does the sump plug not have a magnet on it?

What he said.

[kezzafish]

What he said.

I concur. sounds like a bit of the old oil in the breather trick. possibly resulting in a wee bit of engine wear if the filings you saw are not like the normal clutch plate "sparkles". But also possibly to do with the incorrect oil filter installment that you mentioned. Could you please elaborate on this for us to pontificate further?

[vr4king]

I had trouble with my oil going black as the ace of spades for the first couple of oil changes but it seems to be good now.........Ive put it down to changing oil brands from the prvious owner im using elf moto4 now for the engine side(yes its a honda)
Theres is normaly a few very small shiney things in there but nothing prolific

I have heard that brass coloured shavings are a clear sign that your crank is ready to let go

When I drain my GB side(using motul 2t GB oil)Its nearly always greyish but never alarmed about it as my old cr125 used to be the same im a heavy clutch user after coming of a 125 2t guees I never really dropped the clutch habit.

Im wandering if the water you talk about coulb be a condensation build up like you said it has gotten colder so that would prob have some factor on condensation id do what some other poster suggested and change oil run it for a few mins then dump it and recheck it for all your signs your looking for ifits an internal leak it will show up fairly quickly

And colder weather can cause hard starting as the air gets heavier it can play havoc with ya jetting I norm re-jet for the season..........engines love cold air they do run differently in dif temps and altitude affects things too

[Blagger]

I've got a compression tester here in the Wellytron - pm me if you want to test and I can bring it over

[Rupe]

checked you valve clearances?

You tube it, it's pretty simple to check.

[CRF119]

Um if the person before you didn't have the spring holding that filter in place then the filter had been doing nothing the whole time. Water is a concern but wouldn't cause the engine to start creating metal flakes through the oil. My CRF got plenty of water in it once it took 3 oil flushes to clear the merky mess out.


If it was me i would put new filter in + oil ride for 10 min and do another change to see what comes out and id repeat this until the oil comes out clean with no bits. Then id do a normal ride and see how dirty the oil gets if you get good lumps of metal you have a big problem, if you get small flakes then you may have a problem in a years time. Engines are constantly wearing out so id expect a few bits every now and again.

The brass shavings comment was spot on the Big end cage is made from brass.

My mate ran a CRF with no oil in the engine for over 30 min before it got sad enuf to die so i wouldn't worry to much. (Don't ask how it stuffed that up)

[jaffaonajappa]

I've only had it a few months and it hasn't done all that many hours.

But.....the bikes had enough use that its no longer in its "Running In" period yes?