The welfare state

[The Stranger:Me]

Sorry for the late reply, been busy at work and study.
Your point would make sense if it was as calvinistically simple as "work hard, get/keep job, rely on self". Unfortunately other factors have some impact too, like stupid and greedy US bankers, short-sighted politicians, idiot bosses, bigoted nationalistic executives, GFCs etc. And yes, sometimes missteps and mistakes. Preferring permanent to contract work is not a moral decision - it's just good economic sense. If I get a gig with a shit hot rate for 3 months, and have jack for the rest of the year, vs. steady 12 months at a lower rate, guess which one I'll pick? I have a family to feed - contract work normally carries a premium... I'd give that away in exchange for the certainty of a paycheck. Common sense.

My apologies for my lack of common sense, but in my defence I started my IT business about 15 yrs ago when I became too ill to work in my chosen and preferred vocation - construction. So I guess I just kind of thought that I was doing ok doing what I was doing all this time. I see now (thanks to your input) that my income was clearly insufficient to actually raise my 4 kids, pay off my mortgage, provide the 2 motorbikes in my carport or the waverunner in my garage. The 18' boat in my driveway and the 4x4 to beach launch it is just an illusion.

My point is, how do you get to explain to me that my way doesn't work when clearly I've survived doing what I have suggested? Good luck with that one, please excuse me if I don't believe you though.

If you do what everyone else does, what do you get?
You get what everyone else gets. Simple answer then, don't do what everyone else does. THINK OUTSIDE THE SQUARE! - Perhaps it's not race that holds you back, perhaps they see in you what I see in you?

[rainman]

My apologies for my lack of common sense...

No mate you've misunderstood. I have no criticisms for your approach to your life - it's yours after all - and if it works for you that's awesome. And I've been there a bit, and it's not completely foreign territory. There is no WRONG and RIGHT here: I'm just saying where I'm at at the moment I'm a bit weary and wouldn't object to a bit of security and lower stress in exchange for a small amount of dependence on an employer, rather than my own wits all the time. If I hadn't used up all my cash reserves last time through the wringer, and if I thought the future was all rosy and fluffy kittens etc, then maybe I'd take a different approach.

So, not saying your way doesn't work, but that it's isn't what I'm after. When I say "good economic sense", read "for me" on the end of it - there are very few absolutes in the world, particularly with money decisions.

And actually I don't think I'd even want the 4x4, waverunner and boat, tbh. (Although there are different things I might spend my money on).

[scissorhands]

I'm trying to think of how to reply proper, as difference and sameness in regard to the welfare state, has in my view, particular turns and eddies.

For years my main special interest (apart from geopathy, which is a type of typing particular to dwelling on different parts of the earths surface) has been people typing: body shapes, head shapes, hand shapes, genetics, astrology, esoteric sciences, and as of late mainstream neurological sciences.

Gypsies would view a mans thumb shape to make an instant assessment upon meeting

When a pack or herd shuns a member, much like the alpha female wolf will not allow other females to breed within her pack, they are forced to leave, stand on their own 4 legs, and start another pack. Nature.

Successful tribes like Spartans or Sioux, pull the boys away from mum at 12 and place them with men in a boot camp environment. They become well trained warriors at a young age.

Mother animals will not suckle certain offspring, preferring them to die as unfed babies, rather than grow and become a burden or problem, affecting the survival of the group. For the good of the many.

Regarding the welfare state, offspring that would not survive in the harsh world away from the state, are couched in comfort for the duration of their lives. Then they breed for extra cash and create more of the same

Inuit say the caribou are kept strong by the wolf. The wolf kills the weak, sick and old. Here we support them! The caribou herds rely on the wolf to maintain a strong genetic coding, as cruel nature does.

Degenerated aristocractic family lines, end with skinny humans with big heads. Some are clever as fuck from generations of bookish behaviours. IE shamans, Brahman and Ivy Leagueites

Leisure and lack of hard work, rich fancy foods, alcohol and promiscuity(including the clap) will produce offspring of dubious genetic health quality. I have the 'european foot' from winkle picker wearing ancestors, plus many other recessive traits from my aristocratic ancestors

Whereas the peasant lifestyle of hard work and sweating, simple bland foods and lack of guile( due to too busy working/not in a position to think up schemes) will produce a physically healthier baby.

The welfare state will produce a monetarily poor kind of degenerated aristocrat.

In that the castle and servants will be missing, but the birth right gift of free money drawn from the working masses will be the same. The leisure time will create boredom and drug/alcohol use, unused muscles and unused brain, with the effect of a deterioration to the genetic code of the family unit/pack/society in general.

The ineptitude of these genetic misfits, is not only be exasperated by the supportive state, but the state is largely responsible for the creation of said misfit, much like bad parenting.

Its all a contradiction and a mess of things.

When I attended NA meetings few years ago, many attendees were superb genetic specimens. Very healthy and strong.

If they were cattle in a sales yard, they would get top dollar over the average man on the street.

But as repressed addictive neurotics largely caused by their ADHD DRD4 7R allele and the welfare state, their latent talents and genetic strengths are hamstrung by a modern collective society forcing their individual drives and aspirations down a funnel of collective energies.

Like the rebellious teenager with great natural talents who goes off the rails, due to being forced into a group with all the other herd orientated teenagers, bad parenting and a one size fits all, factory farming machine we have chosen to call, the state.

Shame many of these potential laden antisocials cannot find expression in todays world. Or successful ones like Bob Jones or Richard Branson, Munroe or Britten, they create their own state of sorts.

[Brian d marge]

Look (to quote John Key) I agree.... The shift in values was one point I ignored in my rave because I couldnt capture my feelings about it in a short sentence.

I'll keep thinking about it but I think the shift in values is tied into the shorter technology cycles that exist now. Todays must have gizmo is old junk in 6 months...

Edward Bernays again.....

[Brian d marge]

You'd probably find the Mexican parents are less likely to beat the crap out of the kids, lock them in the car and then go play the pokies for 10 hours.

Scary how similar they are...its only a matter of time before NZ is the same

but without the tequila........

Stephen

[The Stranger:Me]

I'm trying to think of how to reply proper, as difference and sameness in regard to the welfare state, has in my view, particular turns and eddies.

For years my main special interest (apart from geopathy, which is a type of typing particular to dwelling on different parts of the earths surface) has been people typing: body shapes, head shapes, hand shapes, genetics, astrology, esoteric sciences, and as of late mainstream neurological sciences.

Gypsies would view a mans thumb shape to make an instant assessment upon meeting

When a pack or herd shuns a member, much like the alpha female wolf will not allow other females to breed within her pack, they are forced to leave, stand on their own 4 legs, and start another pack. Nature.

Successful tribes like Spartans or Sioux, pull the boys away from mum at 12 and place them with men in a boot camp environment. They become well trained warriors at a young age.

Mother animals will not suckle certain offspring, preferring them to die as unfed babies, rather than grow and become a burden or problem, affecting the survival of the group. For the good of the many.

Regarding the welfare state, offspring that would not survive in the harsh world away from the state, are couched in comfort for the duration of their lives. Then they breed for extra cash and create more of the same

Inuit say the caribou are kept strong by the wolf. The wolf kills the weak, sick and old. Here we support them! The caribou herds rely on the wolf to maintain a strong genetic coding, as cruel nature does.

Degenerated aristocractic family lines, end with skinny humans with big heads. Some are clever as fuck from generations of bookish behaviours. IE shamans, Brahman and Ivy Leagueites

Leisure and lack of hard work, rich fancy foods, alcohol and promiscuity(including the clap) will produce offspring of dubious genetic health quality. I have the 'european foot' from winkle picker wearing ancestors, plus many other recessive traits from my aristocratic ancestors

Whereas the peasant lifestyle of hard work and sweating, simple bland foods and lack of guile( due to too busy working/not in a position to think up schemes) will produce a physically healthier baby.

The welfare state will produce a monetarily poor kind of degenerated aristocrat.

In that the castle and servants will be missing, but the birth right gift of free money drawn from the working masses will be the same. The leisure time will create boredom and drug/alcohol use, unused muscles and unused brain, with the effect of a deterioration to the genetic code of the family unit/pack/society in general.

The ineptitude of these genetic misfits, is not only be exasperated by the supportive state, but the state is largely responsible for the creation of said misfit, much like bad parenting.

Its all a contradiction and a mess of things.

When I attended NA meetings few years ago, many attendees were superb genetic specimens. Very healthy and strong.

If they were cattle in a sales yard, they would get top dollar over the average man on the street.

But as repressed addictive neurotics largely caused by their ADHD DRD4 7R allele and the welfare state, their latent talents and genetic strengths are hamstrung by a modern collective society forcing their individual drives and aspirations down a funnel of collective energies.

Like the rebellious teenager with great natural talents who goes off the rails, due to being forced into a group with all the other herd orientated teenagers, bad parenting and a one size fits all, factory farming machine we have chosen to call, the state.

Shame many of these potential laden antisocials cannot find expression in todays world. Or successful ones like Bob Jones or Richard Branson, Munroe or Britten, they create their own state of sorts.

An interesting post, but where does any of this leave us?
The only reason you are able to rationalise this is because one trait sets us apart from the animals that you refer to. The ability to reason.

Thus we are clearly different. Better or not, buggered if I know, but different none the less. If one considers what makes one species better adapted to their environment than another perhaps survival of the species is a suitable yardstick. So far it's man FTW. Why? our ability to reason is in general more important than physical strength or agility.

Many great advances in society have been made by those that perhaps would have perished had the Spartans had their way. How do you think the 300 would have fared against the guy who invented the machine gun?

So whilst someone may be the weakest link, they may have the strongest mind. Clearly to sacrifice one (be-it literal or figurative) based on your apparent take on genetic strength would be foolhardy.

So I find it hard to justfiy an action or cause for change in social welfare based on genetics. Though skewing the gene pool for financial gain as you point out also seems to be a rather stoopid idea too.


Personally I think it more pertinent to consider the old maxim - The more you tax an activity the less of it you get. The more you subsidise an activity the more of it you get. It REALLY is that simple.
We tax the rich and subsidise the poor. Anyone want to guess the outcome?

[imdying]

We tax the rich and subsidise the poor. Anyone want to guess the outcome?

Equality?

[The Stranger:Me]

Equality?

Ah no. The correct answer was "more labour voters".

[rainman]

Ah no. The correct answer was "more labour voters".

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness? Sure as hell isn't following National or Act's policies...

[Oblivion]

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness? Sure as hell isn't following National or Act's policies...

Capitalize on business to buy back all the things that are foreign owned. Use the money that is made from these ventures to pay back all the debt that New Zealand has. Allow Foreign investment, but not ownership. Once all of that is done and dusted, We can use money that is left over to drag those who do not have a reasonable income to support their own families, to a point where they can have a job that can support their families.

Pfft, Yeah Right

[The Stranger:Me]

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness? Sure as hell isn't following National or Act's policies...

Equality and fairness. Really? The first debate that would rage for weeks would be what constitutes fair - let alone equality. All it would need is a Maori and a Pakeha and the whole equality issue is out the window for good.

Anyone who honestly thought they had all the answers and was actually prepared to answer that question without access to detailed financial and statistical data or very careful consideration of all ramifications simply doesn't have a fooken clue what the issues are. So don't expect any kind of meaningful answer on this matter from me.

That said, the ideas and concepts that I have put forward in this thread have been general in nature and palatable or not, valid.

For example - the more you tax something, the less of it you get. The more you subsidies something the more of it you get. Now by all means prove me wrong. You may find examples where this doesn't work, for instance where nature has intervened etc, but from a purely economic perspective it is a maxim.

National, Act, Labour - I could give a rats really, it's my firm belief that we get what we deserve. I'll just sit back and laugh a bit harder no doubt after the next election when we get what we asked for and what we deserve - whomever that may be.

But like the maxim above - quite simply, poor vote Labour. Career politicians are in it for their careers - not you or I. How does a Labour politician keep its job?

[Swoop]

How does a Labour politician keep its job?

From evidence over the years, the answer has to be "Lying".

[scissorhands]

Anyone who honestly thought they had all the answers and was actually prepared to answer that question without access to detailed financial and statistical data or very careful consideration of all ramifications simply doesn't have a fooken clue what the issues are. So don't expect any kind of meaningful answer on this matter from me.

That said, the ideas and concepts that I have put forward in this thread have been general in nature and palatable or not, valid.

So Britten and Munroe's success was a fluke because they didnt have detailed bullshit or statistical data (read lies).

Yes yours are very palatable ideas, sweet like cakes, Polly want a cracker?

I just gave you some good fucken scientific clues and you then allude to leaving it to the professionals who know better than you or I. Leave it to the state eh to make the right decisions

Aint these fuckers the same band of monkeys who sit in a big tree and everyday throw shit at each other? (oh wait that might be KB) .... Interesting

[imdying]

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness?

Hold up there, you're getting waaaay ahead of yourself. What makes you think we want equality and fairness? What makes you think people deserve it? And what the fuck makes you think it's even the best way forward? There are plenty of people who are never going to be anything other that bottom feeding scum, why should be wasting our limited resources trying to elevate these people?

Just because they're people?

[scissorhands]

Psychopathy anyone?