Braking ,braking or maybee Breaking.

[FROSTY:Me]

The whole braking issue/question keeps getting raised,and hopefully will just keep on bein raised.
In my opinion a chimp could be trained to take off on a hayabussa but it takes brains to stop it again especially in tricky conditions.
So To our less experienced members I'd suggest this is one of the most important things to practice.
How fast can ya stop if you need to??
What about in wet conditions??
What brake do ya use -front/back/engine -all??
What do ya do if ya get a front wheel slide??
What is pre braking and how can it improve my stopping distance??
This is all stuff better praciced under controled conditions not in the heat of the moment

Some expert told me it takes 16 repetitions before something can become a habit. - thats a fair bit of practice.

[Jackrat]

16 repetitions ??
That doesn't really suprise me,most things take practice before we get good at them.
Something I do with every bike I buy is to find a quite car park an practice braking.This includes rear only,front only,both togeather.
I like to have a mate along that can call out when to stop when practicing panic braking.
You get up to a good speed an then said mate calls out "NOW".
You can then measure your braking distance ect.
It can be an eye opener.
Another thing I like to practice is changing lines while under brakes.
I pick a mark then head toward it at a normal road speed,anywhere between 50-100kms.When your inside your known braking distance you chuck out all brakes and try to avoid the mark at the same time.
Even practicing direction changes at reasonable speeds without braking can teach one a lot about the bike/rider combo.
Good fun as well.

[TwoSeven]

Some expert told me it takes 16 repetitions before something can become a habit. - thats a fair bit of practice.

Your talking about simple conditioning (i've posted about it before in other threads).

The way I do it, which may be different from others.

Basic rule I use. If you change bikes or work on your brakes, you need to do some brake testing. It takes 5 mins and is fairly simple.

All you need to do is find a vacent lot or car park, drive along at 10mph like you are doing your basic riding test and snap the front brake. Softly at first, then harder each time.

Snapping the brake means to bang it on fast and then let go very quickly so it doesnt lock. Its conditioning you not to lock them up and to mentally understand what the different lever pressures do. The reason you do it after every mod of the brakes, is because the behaviour changes, so you need to reapply the conditioning.

After that you repeat the procedure but perform an emergency stop also using the rear - remember its front brake then back brake (with not really a gap in between). Remember you dont squeeze the lever for grim life, its just on, then squeeze (for how long depends on how much you need to slow) then off. Many pommie riders will know that if you skid any wheel you fail your test, so thats the standard you need to aim for.

If your brave enough to want to practice in the wet, its rear brake then front (you need to squat the bike not dive it). Again, on gently then squeeze, but remember while riding in the wet to often use the brakes to clean off the surface water and crud otherwise when you really need them the pads may aquaplane on the discs.

To me, it really is important to get the hang of the soft lever squeeze followed by applying the pressure harder (kind of like a two phase brake application). The first part of the lever pressure not only cleans the disc surface of any crud, it also has the affect of transfering the weight forwards gently.

Personally I dont believe in covering brake levers. The time it takes you to move your hand over the lever and squeeze it is long enough for your brain to realise what its about to do and adjust for it. You'll also find by not covering you'll automatically guage the correct braking force and use the correct number of fingers for the application (which kind of solves that debate) - a technique that is usefull on the track.

If you cover, you'll likely use the 'panic vice grip' which will lock the bike and dump you on the ground. Anyhow, if youre that close to hitting something - doesnt matter how hard you squeeze the lever, you'll hit it anyhow - no bike can stop in more than 1/10th of a second if they are moving faster than 10mph.

Thats my opinion anyhow

If you really want to learn correct procedure its always worth doing a proper riding course. Amazing what you learn on em

[erik]

...Many pommie riders will know that if you skid any wheel you fail your test, so thats the standard you need to aim for.

I would've failed my restricted licence test then, the rear locked up a bit on me when I had to do the braking test. It often happens to me, locking the rear in the wet when I'm emergency braking.

If your brave enough to want to practice in the wet, its rear brake then front (you need to squat the bike not dive it).

Could you explain that in more detail? I've only ever heard to use the front brake fractionally before the rear. As I understand it, if you use the rear first, when you apply the front brake it transfers the weight onto the front and off the rear which can make the rear skid if you don't ease off the pressure on the back brake.

Personally I dont believe in covering brake levers. The time it takes you to move your hand over the lever and squeeze it is long enough for your brain to realise what its about to do and adjust for it. You'll also find by not covering you'll automatically guage the correct braking force and use the correct number of fingers for the application (which kind of solves that debate) - a technique that is usefull on the track.

If you cover, you'll likely use the 'panic vice grip' which will lock the bike and dump you on the ground. Anyhow, if youre that close to hitting something - doesnt matter how hard you squeeze the lever, you'll hit it anyhow - no bike can stop in more than 1/10th of a second if they are moving faster than 10mph.

Thats my opinion anyhow

I've gotta disagree. Riding in Auckland traffic, I think it's essential to cover your brake lever. The fraction of a second that it takes to back off the throttle, move your fingers out from under the brake lever and then grip the lever to start braking could be the difference between stopping or not stopping in time.

I had a bit of a scare a month or two ago lanesplitting and didn't notice a car that was turning through the traffic into a driveway until it was too late. I was covering my brakes, but with only my first two fingers on the brake lever, and I wasn't able to stop in time. Luckily the driver saw me and stopped pulling across.
After that I went and practiced a bit of emergency braking and I've since switched to braking with all four fingers because on my bike, I think you need it. It would be nice to be able to use just two fingers though, because throttle control is easier and it feels like there's less chance of my hand coming off the bar.

[DingDong]

How I do it: beachracing (NZ), you go hard out 200+ and grab your front then your rear (same motion) spinning the rear (not complete lock) so it kicks out and pushing your wieght over the front for max load and slightly locking the front in a pulse.
You might think its not the same as the road but I can assure you its not far off. The only thing you need to watch for is flipping the bike forward as I've seen many times.

Its an auto thing for me now... and save my bacon a couple of times

[TonyB]

If anyone is planning on full on braking on the road, just make reeeaaaal sure there's nothing behind you. I did it once a while after passing a Hilman Avenger (of all things) I had been maintaining a highish speed, I checked both mirrors, pulled across to the left a bit, and slammed on the anchors HARD. The avenger flew past me having to take evasive action- made the heart rate increase a bit....

[Ixion]

..
Personally I dont believe in covering brake levers. The time it takes you to move your hand over the lever and squeeze it is long enough for your brain to realise what its about to do and adjust for it. You'll also find by not covering you'll automatically guage the correct braking force and use the correct number of fingers for the application (which kind of solves that debate) - a technique that is usefull on the track.

If you cover, you'll likely use the 'panic vice grip' which will lock the bike and dump you on the ground. Anyhow, if youre that close to hitting something - doesnt matter how hard you squeeze the lever, you'll hit it anyhow - no bike can stop in more than 1/10th of a second if they are moving faster than 10mph.

Thats my opinion anyhow

..

I agree. I don't cover normally because I find if I do I tend to go "Oh shit grab grab grab". Uncovered the fraction of a second gives me time to go "Oh shit ... evaluate ". Which also means that sometimes I don't brake at all, I evade. I'd always rather steer out of danger than try to brake out of danger.

Only time I cover is in low speed traffic where I'm actually just waiting for something to happen.

[TwoSeven]

The riding in the wet bit is rather odd for many because lots of people dont see much rain.

Normally your dry braking will be something like 75/25 front/rear distribution. When you hit the front brake you load it up and the rear end becomes lighter. The weight going to the front causes the front suspension to 'dive'. This is ideal for the dry and a good rider will also learn to sample the braking as it progresses.

In the wet if you do that [front/rear] it increases the chance of skidding and dumping the bike (think you have a contact patch a few mm across that now has water between it and the road).

So, what you do is you apply the rear brake first (not hard) so that the bike squats (it causes the rear to drag), then apply the front brake to do the slowing down. Since the bike has squatted rather than dived, the braking distribution becomes 50/50 rather than 75/25. The chasis also settles much more.

Because the braking technique takes slightly longer, you must also reduce your speed more as compared to the dry in order to give all this extra time to happen.

Squatting a bike is also a technique used for stability.

You can observe it happening if you watch last weeks motoGP. Keep a careful eye on the back of the fairing just under the chain and before the rear wheel (where the shock is). When the rider dabs the rear brake without the front you will see the bike almost fold in half like a big V. When they they apply the front, you'll see the whole bike squat - your more likely to see it happen out of some corners. You'll only really see it from side on shots.

You can get it to happen as well if you stomp on the rear doing 10mph (no faster - it has to be slow). Feels like you just broke the bike and you'll hear a big clonk as it snaps back).

For wet weather braking, folding it like that is too hard, your just applying it gently then squeezing both together.

Another thing is that you should never be braking with the clutch in. It will cause the rear to lock and skid. Close the throttle instead - you should only bring the clutch in when you hear the engine revs drop as the bike starts to stall.

The final bit is that all braking should be done only when the bike is verticle (never when the bike is leaned over).

The techniques are mentioned by Gary Jeahrne in his 'sport biking' book - he talks about settling the chassis using the rear brake. Kenny Roberts mentions it in his old book, and the old 'uk police riders book' also talks about braking technique. I have a feeling code mentions it too - but couldnt find a reference while I was just looking.

[justsomeguy]

Lots of good tips...... all I can say is practice......

and practice - and practice -

The wobbles that the front tyre makes under hard mid corner braking can be a bit scary - but you get used to it.....

The wet weather behaviour...... well I crashed - so I know all about not jumping on the front brake in the wet...... . wish I knew that (TwoSeven's advice) earlier......

Practice - practice - pract-

[FROSTY:Me]

Ya know the problem with having a bunch of book knowledge for a beginnner -or relatively begginner rider is actually putting it into practice.
Im working on the principle of Keep It Simple Stupid.
Take complicated concepts and break em down in a way learner riders can understand.
What I see far too often is people in overload mode .
They simply freeze because they dont remember which of the million bits of advise to follow.
Practice is the only way to solve that problem.
I cannot dissagree more with the assertion that on a normal piece or road that you will suddenly skid if you brake hard in the wet .
That simply is not true.
But without brakeing practice in the dry first -to load up the front tyre you may very well skid in the wet.
That is part of the whole practice thing.

[TwoSeven]

I think that in order to get the modicum of skill that is required for safe riding, you need to be taught it by another skilled individual who will show the correct way of doing things.

You can read stuff, but you only have to mis-interprete one thing incorrectly and you may pick up a bad habbit that can be with you for a long time - potentially causing grief.

Infortunately, the only way everyone is put in a position to be shown the ideal way of doing these things is when they get their license, and driver-ed classes (for motorcycles) are just not done here. Its scratch and win followed by a half hour wobble round the block.

The compulsory teaching of newbie motorcyclists to a minimum approved standard of safety would probably be one thing that a government would get my vote on. I also think people should be made to do a refresher if they are involved in an injury related accident and wish to continue to ride (they do this with cars at the moment).

[FROSTY:Me]

Which Takes us back to square one.
Either the system needs a total change--compulsary riding schools.--
Ya know 20 some years ago you would get your licence quicker if you attended the coca cola riding school.
Thanks to our friggin namby pamby protect people from themselves goverment an instructor can be sued for damages if a student gets hurt.
So all that can be done is offer advise for new riders to follow.
Keep it really simple and make sure they only practice one thing at a time.

[XP@]

Yup, Braking well needs Practice.
I have heard it said that "Practice Makes Permanent" but with braking IMHO you need to keep practicing.

Knowing the BIG difference between a Panic Stop and Maximum Effort Braking is the first step in being able to stop. Panic Stops involve jamming on the brakes, anyone can do this (even FROSTYs Chimp on the Hybusa). Maximum Effort involves getting all the braking out of your brakes you can't do this without practice.

I try and find a carpark every 6 months or so to do some handling and braking practice. Apart from that If I get chance on the road I do an occasional, planned, max effort stop.

I would disagree with the argument that you should not cover your brakes. If you are practiced at braking properly then a panic stop is not an option. So when the situation is looking slightly dubious you should cover both levers, just in case. slightly more duboius and I show the brake light. The more time you spend thinking at your higher speed, the more distance you will cover. So start braking as soon as possible this way you will have a lot more time / distance in hand. If you have your fingers on the brake then your reaction time should be about 0.21 seconds, hands on the grips, 0.45 seconds... at 100kph this is 6 meters if there is a car in that last 6 meters then you will be wishing your hands were on the brakes.

[Beemer]

I used to practise braking on quiet roads when I was learning to ride so I wouldn't be scared of what happens when you brake. I used to quite enjoy it and I never did have any fear of braking hard when I needed to. It does take practise though, and doing a Stay Upright cornering and braking course reinforced my knowledge. There was one woman there though, who I really worried about. She was petrified of braking - they start you off braking at a very slow speed then build it up to 100kph but she started crying and refused to even try it at 30kph. That was bad enough, but she was riding a BMW F650GS and going home from the course over the Para Paras! I was amazed that she was so scared of braking - she had obviously been riding for a while to have a 650, yet she wouldn't even try braking. The instructors took her aside and offered to give her some one-on-one training but she wouldn't even do that. I hope she is still alive and riding because I really did have my doubts that she would cope in an emergency if she had to brake at high speed.

[crazyxr250rider]

I used to practise braking on quiet roads when I was learning to ride so I wouldn't be scared of what happens when you brake. I used to quite enjoy it and I never did have any fear of braking hard when I needed to. It does take practise though, and doing a Stay Upright cornering and braking course reinforced my knowledge. There was one woman there though, who I really worried about. She was petrified of braking - they start you off braking at a very slow speed then build it up to 100kph but she started crying and refused to even try it at 30kph. That was bad enough, but she was riding a BMW F650GS and going home from the course over the Para Paras! I was amazed that she was so scared of braking - she had obviously been riding for a while to have a 650, yet she wouldn't even try braking. The instructors took her aside and offered to give her some one-on-one training but she wouldn't even do that. I hope she is still alive and riding because I really did have my doubts that she would cope in an emergency if she had to brake at high speed.

Wha? 30kph you must be kidding! dont quite see why braking could be so be so frightening