Braking ,braking or maybee Breaking.

[Ixion]

Read the study "Task Analysis of Intensive braking" (especially page 9)

Yeah, I read that. Pity though that they didn't do any tests on a wet road, or an oily one. Stopping on a dry good seal surface is not too big an ask, even if the front does get twitchy you usually have a fraction of a second to ease it off. On wet/oily surface it's monumentally harder.

And I suspect that the rear brake / engine loading (ie don't declutch) may have more of a role to play under those conditions.If so I'd prefer to keep doing it the same way always, cos I don't want to have to have two conditioned responses.

[TwoSeven]

Read the study "Task Analysis of Intensive braking" (especially page 9)

I prefer to take the advice of the uk police rider training school.

Edit:
The reason why I say this (from being told), is because the UK police performed the same tests about 20 years ago (and also fairly recently). What they found was the stopping distance only varied by a small amount (in the case of your study about one meter was observed).

What they also found, is that over a large percentage of riders emergency braking who used the clutch were more likely to lose control of their machines, than those that didnt lock the rear wheel.

They also found that riders who pulled in the clutch and locked the rear also suffered even worse in the wet and/or icy conditions with riders most commonly dumping the bike on the side and then sliding some distance (its the old right hand crash rule). The police also have the benefit from investigating lots of crashes

So they decided that not pulling in the clutch meant the rider had the most control over the machine in the widest range of conditions.

----
Your study doesnt take that into account.

[FROSTY:Me]

Folks there are some fairly huge advances been made in tyre,suspension technology in the last 5 years.
Bikes are now able to stop as well in the wet as they used to in the dry
In a semi controlled situation (semi emergency) braking hard I am going to first change down a gear then apply a touch of rear brake at the same time as Im applying the first of my front brake which is settling the bike from its previous coasting or accelerating state. I have also loaded up the suspension and front tyre by applying front brake I am then progressively applying more front brake and less rear brake untill I reach the point I have no rear brake applied. That will opperate be it wet or dry. The only variation is when and for how long the percentage of brakes is applied for.

[Motu]

Folks there are some fairly huge advances been made in tyre,suspension technology in the last 5 years.
Bikes are now able to stop as well in the wet as they used to in the dry
.

Try doing it on DOT knobs,my dry weather braking is like your wet weather braking...my wet weather braking would be like you riding on ice.I really live from the feed back from my tyres.

[vifferman]

What they also found, is that over a large percentage of riders emergency braking who used the clutch were more likely to lose control of their machines, than those that didnt lock the rear wheel.

Probably not illogical, when you think about it.

When you pull the clutch in, any stabilising effect from the gyroscopic action of the engine rotating is minimised, and you've also lost any drag from engine braking, no matter how slight or ineffectual.

[XP@]

What they also found, is that over a large percentage of riders emergency braking who used the clutch were more likely to lose control of their machines, than those that didnt lock the rear wheel.

That sounds very plausable, will have a practice without the clutch.

Do you know of any published studies supporting increased number of crashes with use of clutch? because if this is the case then I will definatly re-think / re-learn breaking.

Also should watch the "than those that didnt lock the rear wheel" because there are some bikers out there who use the rear brake only. These temporary dudes will lock the back wheel and probably crash. now if the stats are not properly presented the wrong result will apply.

When you come to a stop you will stall unless the clutch is pulled in. when is this normally done?

There is still a risk of locking the rear brake, if the wheel is still being driven and the brake is released would the risk of instability be greater than if the clutch was pulled in?

Interesting debate

[Beemer]

And don't forget many bikes have ABS now so locking up your brakes isn't going to happen.

The thing everyone should take from this thread is to practise braking - you practise everything else you do, so why not braking?

As for the women who wouldn't brake at 30kph, man I hope she's still alive and got over her fear.

[TwoSeven]

That sounds very plausable, will have a practice without the clutch.

Do you know of any published studies supporting increased number of crashes with use of clutch? because if this is the case then I will definatly re-think / re-learn breaking.

No idea on studies, just how it was explained to me - also how I was tought when I did my rider trainin for the brit license.

Just try it at a slow speed first (10km/hr), remember to shut the throttle and then apply the brakes, also pull in the clutch when you hear the engine noise drop to stall.

I used to have the habbit of linking the clutch to the throttle (because of gear changes). So when I shut the throttle I always pulled in the clutch.

Not til recently have I mastered independant usage of clutch and throttle.

[FROSTY:Me]

I used to have the habbit of linking the clutch to the throttle (because of gear changes). So when I shut the throttle I always pulled in the clutch.
Not til recently have I mastered independant usage of clutch and throttle.

Holey shit batman --Now I understand
So you actually have limited actual riding experience and are simply parroting other people.
Ok then as MOTU covered off his bike /tyre combination means he is a lot more tentative on brakes than I am.
So lets go deeper into the braking situation -
A 75kg rider on lets say a KZ440 , a cbr600 or a harley hardtail
In theory all three bikes start out with around a 50/50 weight distribution
OR DO THEY?? --a modern sports bike unlaiden has a load bias already to the front. -around 55/45 Add to that a rider who is loading up the handlebars and so the front end even more and you right away have the front brakes ability improved.Add to that multi piston calipers and high quality tyres and you barely need a rear brake
The kZ440--neutral riding position 50/50 weight loading. -single front disk with a single piston caliper.drum rear brake -that combination will mean you need to use both brakes to stop. add to that they are usually fitted with commuter type tyres.Yep heavy front brakes could very well cause a skid.

[TwoSeven]

haha.. no - getting close to 30 odd years or riding now - although the bones this winter feel like 90 years

The clutch thing is because i'm a lazy sod and its an old bad habbit - I finally got round to doing something about it. I suspect if you looked at your bad habbits you'd find a few. Do you constantly work at sorting them out ?

I have my 600 set up for a 60/40 weight bias - personal preference (it has rather good nissin calipers with a carbon/alloy HH pad), the old 250 used to be stock (twin disc/HH EBC green). Both bikes are/were set up for a 90kg rider and I dont load the bars (I have RSI, so cant hold on for heavy braking - hence I have to use finesse over brawn).

Even riding bikes with 6-pot AP calipers, I still use the rear - its just a matter of having a brake that works and knowing how to adjust your suspension properly as well as to work the chassis to get it settled. You should know how to do all this - you race - or do I detect some m&m avoidance happening here

[FROSTY:Me]

I hate chocolate.
So You will be paying me in starburst babys.
It is unfair to advise a less experienced biker of how to brake based apon an issue in your life.
The idea is to get the bike stopped or slowed down as fast as possible

[XP@]

No idea on studies, just how it was explained to me - also how I was tought when I did my rider trainin for the brit license.

Just try it at a slow speed first (10km/hr), remember to shut the throttle and then apply the brakes, also pull in the clutch when you hear the engine noise drop to stall.

I used to have the habbit of linking the clutch to the throttle (because of gear changes). So when I shut the throttle I always pulled in the clutch.

Not til recently have I mastered independant usage of clutch and throttle.

Sitting here with a BIG smile on my face...
This is not just because I sorted the backfiring issue, there is also the "Test ride" i've just been on. Round the paramatta inlet with no other traffic

Paying a little attention to what i was doing I noticed that braking for corners I didn't consider pulling in the clutch. This was dispite me braking hadrer than normal.

Anyway, I decided to have a few practices(10km/h to 1?0km/h). first without the clutch then with the clutch. At first I didn't feel much difference maybe a bit more stability without the clutch and a little faster braking with it. There is also the last second thought required to pull the cluch in if it is not already in.

The major difference came when I locked the rear when i hadn't pulled the clutch in. Guess what the bike stalled so carefully i released the back brake, effectively bump starting the bike. I'm not sure I would like to be having to deal with this in a real situation.

So I think I will continue to use the clutch in maximum effort stopping because...

• Applying both brakes and clutch in one fluid motion is easy
• The effects of engine braking are negated when you use the back brake
• Gyro effects are minimal when compared to the mass/motion of the bike
• Engine should still be running at the end of the emergency

[XP@]

And don't forget many bikes have ABS now so locking up your brakes isn't going to happen.

never ridden a bike with ABS, from what i understand you still have to brake progressively, to make sure you get the weight to the front and get the traction you need... anyone help here?

The thing everyone should take from this thread is to practise braking - you practise everything else you do, so why not braking?

"Practice makes Permanent" both for good habits and bad habits.

As for the women who wouldn't brake at 30kph, man I hope she's still alive and got over her fear.

Ditto!

[Ixion]

never ridden a bike with ABS, from what i understand you still have to brake progressively, to make sure you get the weight to the front and get the traction you need... anyone help here?

Yes, ABS won't do the braking for you. You still need to keep the bike balanced, and load the front . Only difference is that if you don't instead of the front locking, you just won't slow down much.

But it DOES mean you don't have to worry about locking the front in the wet, and can devote the concentration that otherwise you would have to devote to the state of the front tyre's grip, to other things, like finding an evasion hole.

I think it's very good

[Beemer]

The first week I had the Beemer a stupid woman in a van decided to do a U-turn in front of me as I turned into a side street but because the street was narrow, it became at least a three-point turn. I'd never used ABS before and just braked as I would normally and found it really did feel very smooth. I came to a complete stop and avoided hitting her, so I like it!

The Goose doesn't have it, but it does have what appear to be very good brakes, so I'll just keep on doing what I've been doing so far - it's kept me out of trouble to this point in my life!