Rossi is a coming

[Shaun]

True. Was good to see him dicing and making passes. Bit of a debrief here.

Like his Honesty

[DidJit]

Interesting comment on the Motomatters article I linked to in the MotoGP Sachsenring thread. What do you more knowledgeable folk (than me) make of it? Feasible theory?
Quoted below.

What can help Ducati?
Submitted by thecosman on Sat, 2011-07-16 03:29.

Elimination of a spec tire rule! Most people correlate the end of Stoner's 2007 Ducati dominance with the intro of the CF frame but it also coincided with moving of Rossi to BS and the elimination of bike-specific tires with the spec rule the following year.

Maybe Rossi's 2008 development input to BS tilted the balance of the resulting spec tire from the Duc's hard to heat needs to a those that benefited the Japanese style GP bikes. There also was the rise of Lorenzo as a big talent so more true competition for the win.

There is a pic from Mugello of the GP12 naked at http://twitpic.com/5l35h3/full and from a side profile it is almost exactly the same as their superbike with a nearly horizontal front cylinder and huge amounts of empty space between the front wheel and the crankshaft. No wonder why they are having a hard time loading it to get heat into it. However, this same layout in the superbike is working just fine against strong competition with the easy to warm up spec Pirelli tires. I think their problem is not the CF frame but how the orientation of the cylinders keeps the heavy parts of the engine very far back from the front axle and low. The lower the C of G the less load transfer under braking and acceleration and the less heat that goes into the tires. The further back the C of G is reduces the weight on the front in the first place. Each bad characteristic compounds the other. Not good.

Looking at the RC211V at http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image...cv211v/4/6.htm and the M1 at http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload...ges/225306.jpg you can see that Ducati's mass centralization is poor and and possibly their resulting high yaw moment of inertia makes the bike slow to turn simply from a mass distribution perspective regardless of C of G position or steering geometry. Its like adding insult to the injury of above and explains both of Rossi's problems of hard to heat tires and a hard to turn bike.

It also makes their decision to go with the same subframe-chassis style design for the new production superbike much more reasonable. With the Pirelli tires heat generation is not an issue and maybe the reduced load on the front tire helps with reduction of front tire wear late in the race. Now the low and rearward C of G is a benefit and not a problem! I suspect that production road and even club race tires are more like the Pirellis then the BS so us mortals won't have to worry about warm tires as we go to the cafe or turn a lap at the local track on our 1199.

Chris
http://moto2-usa.blogspot.com/

[Mental Trousers]

Interesting. However, I thought the problem everyone was having when the spec tyre was introduced was having too much weight on the front causing excessive wear and other problems.

He maybe right about how slow the weight transfers though.

Ron Haslam is a big advocate of pushing things until you've gone too far, because you don't know how far is too far until you've tried it. The Ducati may just be too stiff and they need to back things off so there's a little bit more flex (use alloy instead of carbon fibre maybe). After all, flex pretty much equates to feel.

[Shaun]

Having a chassis that has desired flex in it aids the tyres warming up and gripping, the SHORT RIGID Carbon Frame does not allow enough flex, hence no heat and know feel for the rider.

Fork flex, causing the motor and wheel to become closer causes heat in the tyres and better positive feel for the rider

I believe the CG would also be altered if the bike had enough flex in the front end

[Shaun]

After all, flex pretty much equates to feel.

True that, go back a couple of years and look at the top tripple clamp on Rossis Yamaha, HOLES HOLES AND MORE HOLES all = Flex and feel

[ajturbo]

True that, go back a couple of years and look at the top tripple clamp on Rossis Yamaha, HOLES HOLES AND MORE HOLES all = Flex and feel

yeah.. sounds like my Bucket racer... LOTS of flex in the front end

[gav]

OK, so whats up with Rossi then? Has he improved the Ducati at all?
Bearing in mind that in the last 6 races last year, Casey had 4 podiums including 3 wins!! Remember how Stoner would always be quick out of the box in practice and qualifying sessions, now it seems Rossi can't even get in the top 10??

[Shaun]

OK, so whats up with Rossi then? Has he improved the Ducati at all?
Bearing in mind that in the last 6 races last year, Casey had 4 podiums including 3 wins!! Remember how Stoner would always be quick out of the box in practice and qualifying sessions, now it seems Rossi can't even get in the top 10??

Nothing up with Rossi! The bike is different to what Stoner raced and I imagine based on his history, Rossi has been employed to turn the Ducati into a bike any one can ride, like he did with Honda and Yamaha

[Shaun]

yeah.. sounds like my Bucket racer... LOTS of flex in the front end

you sure youre not talking about your dick now mate http://www.tsl-timing.com/bsb/livetimingbsb.html

[gav]

Nothing up with Rossi! The bike is different to what Stoner raced and I imagine based on his history, Rossi has been employed to turn the Ducati into a bike any one can ride, like he did with Honda and Yamaha

But surely with Rossi and JB in charge, it should be getting better? How is it better than what finished the season last year? Just how good is Casey Stoner to have been able to win on that bike last year?

[Shaun]

But surely with Rossi and JB in charge, it should be getting better? How is it better than what finished the season last year? Just how good is Casey Stoner to have been able to win on that bike last year?

In charge of the day to day team maybe, but NOT the men with the wallet that wanted this Carbon Fibre F Up. Stoner is incredibly talented obviously, but all other brands have radically improved this year, even the piece of shit Suzuki, so your question re stoner and winning is not quite a case of comparing an apple with an apple mate

[Mental Trousers]

But surely with Rossi and JB in charge, it should be getting better? How is it better than what finished the season last year? Just how good is Casey Stoner to have been able to win on that bike last year?

They can only improve certain things. Some stuff they can't change, ie the materials, design philosophy etc. The Carbon Fibre airbox is bike porn, but Rossie and Burgess don't get a say in what it's made of etc.

With Rossi not making the progress that everyone expected him to make Ducati have got to start looking at the fundamentals of the bike. After all, most people feel that if he can't make it work then who can??

[gav]

They can only improve certain things. Some stuff they can't change, ie the materials, design philosophy etc. The Carbon Fibre airbox is bike porn, but Rossie and Burgess don't get a say in what it's made of etc.

With Rossi not making the progress that everyone expected him to make Ducati have got to start looking at the fundamentals of the bike. After all, most people feel that if he can't make it work then who can??

Well Casey Stoner can .... the carbon fibre frame/airbox concept was introduced last season, its not new this year ...
As I said, look at Stoner's results from his last 6 races on the board. It was a race winning bike that Rossi/Burgess inherited.
Ducati were always insistent that the bike was designed to be ridden in a certain manner. It certainly looks like Rossi doesn't push the bike anything like Stoner use to.

[Mental Trousers]

Well Casey Stoner can .... the carbon fibre frame/airbox concept was introduced last season, its not new this year ...
As I said, look at Stoner's results from his last 6 races on the board. It was a race winning bike that Rossi/Burgess inherited.
Ducati were always insistent that the bike was designed to be ridden in a certain manner. It certainly looks like Rossi doesn't push the bike anything like Stoner use to.

It was something Casey Stoner could ride the arse off. Nobody else. Capirossi is the only other person to win on it and that was one of those dodgy races where it rains etc. Stoner had a long list of things that he wanted for the bike but never got, which was one of the main reasons he left Ducati. Things that Rossi is getting and they're definitely improving things, but not enough.

[Brian d marge]

Bin it and start again , if rossi wins ANYTHING , this year and next ( the 1000 might mask the prob) he IS a legend

I would like to see that bike work , and if I were rossi I would sign on for another year Just to make it work ,,,

Stephen

Wooof Woof , are the technical terms used when talking about that bike