Cheesecutter campaign - losing the battle

[Ocean1]

Now let's compare the WRBs with the following:

• lamposts
• armco
• head ons with other vehicles
• farmers' fences

But nobody's suggesting replacing WRB with those things. The most common preference is concrete, so let's compare WRB to that, eh?

How many sports cars have ploughed under a concrete wall like the incident on Haywards hill a year or so ago?

How many SUVs have displaced concrete walls far enough into the opposing lane to hit oncomming traffic as has happened numerous times with WRB.

How many times have trucks rolled over concrete walls like they were'nt there?

And how many motorcyclists have been snapped in half by a concrete wall?

They're an abonimation, dude. Not because they don't reduce head-on collisions, but because they do it at the lethal expense of a minority, at very little saving in terms of monetary cost.

And the eliptical posts? They're an improvement, but nowhere near enough to justify their use.

[Katman]

Admittedly I do know of some that haven't survived some of the above too.

Collectively we know shit-loads.

[Berries]

I guess the thing with this thread and any other on wire rope barriers on KB is that it will just go round in circles. Some people hate them, some couldn't care less, and there are quite a few in the middle, but in the end typing on here won't change a thing. If you are concerned, you need to talk to and convince the people who can change things, NZTA.

[riffer]

I take it BRONZ doesn't agree that roadside furniture on major highways can be improved to help prevent injury to road users then? Someone needs to convince TPTB that motorcycles are valid transport, should be included in the transport plan, and roads designed accordingly. Or have you caved in to government pressure to label bikes leisure craft? Operated at the owner's express risk and only if the rider assumes all responsibility for visibility, skill, and any injury or death sustained in operating that leisure craft?

Let's get one thing straight okay? Just because I am a BRONZ member doesn't mean that every opinion I have is BRONZ policy.

Having said that, BRONZ are working hard on finding the correct way to address the issue. The problem is that at the moment, the numbers don't stack up. When we can prove these things actually are dangerous then we are going to get some traction.

And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.

Otherwise, all the opinions in the world will mean nothing. Find some evidence!

[James Deuce]

Let's get one thing straight okay? Just because I am a BRONZ member doesn't mean that every opinion I have is BRONZ policy.

Having said that, BRONZ are working hard on finding the correct way to address the issue. The problem is that at the moment, the numbers don't stack up. When we can prove these things actually are dangerous then we are going to get some traction.

And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.

Otherwise, all the opinions in the world will mean nothing. Find some evidence!

For God's sake man, all over the world WRBs are being removed if they're installed like they are in NZ and they are being clad with a polyethylene sheath if installed correctly to prevent limb entanglement. How about BRONZ get off their fat chuff and do their own research and try to prevent the sort of inuries that other Governments have acknowledged as an unaccaptable threat for motorcyclists from happening in NZ without sacrificing lives in the process?

[MSTRS:Me]

They're an abonimation, dude. Not because they don't reduce head-on collisions, but because they do it at the lethal expense of a minority, at very little saving in terms of monetary cost.

And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.

But - but - but...
ACC hit me with high levies. Where's the evidence that says I'm a liability?
The point being that the greater good is typically at the expense of individuals.

[Devil]

And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.

Here's my problem.
Why do we have to wait till death and injury occurs?

[BoristheBiter]

Here's my problem.
Why do we have to wait till death and injury occurs?

So does that mean we ban all forms of transport?

[Devil]

Of course not. That is not logical.

[riffer]

How about BRONZ get off their fat chuff and do their own research and try to prevent the sort of inuries that other Governments have acknowledged as an unaccaptable threat for motorcyclists from happening in NZ without sacrificing lives in the process?

Where's the evidence that says I'm a liability?

Here's my problem.
Why do we have to wait till death and injury occurs?

Because that's the way the system works. For better of for worse, Transit works on a cost benefit analysis. That's why you can't say "these things are dangerous so you should do something about it." They come back with "where's the evidence this is happening in New Zealand?". To a lesser extent they also look at Australian information too.

My call for evidence was based on the lack of resource we currently have in BRONZ. We really could do with some assistance on that.

If y'all would rather criticise BRONZ for the lack of results on your particular issue without being willing to help then so be it. But maybe people should think about how that's working out for them.

But please don't confuse a lack of available resource for an anti-motorcyclist policy.

[MSTRS:Me]

If y'all would rather criticise BRONZ for the lack of results on your particular issue without being willing to help then so be it.

No criticism here (except as far as it appears BRONZ accepts WRBs as we know and love them are here to stay).
As for evidence...NZTA want test results, not anecdotal. I don't think there have been any tests anywhere, except for computer modelling. I mean, who is going to pilot a m/c into a WRB just to see what might happen?
It's not difficult to figure out what happens when a human body hits those posts/wires, and the growing number of deaths and maimings has been a catalyst for removal or retrofitting of covers (at least in Europe).

[riffer]

No criticism here (except as far as it appears BRONZ accepts WRBs as we know and love them are here to stay).

FACT: BRONZ Wellington Inc. does NOT accept the WRBs are here to stay and that there is nothing that can be done about them. I can't speak for any other BRONZ region.

[riffer]

And how many motorcyclists have been snapped in half by a concrete wall?

http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/m...crete-barrier/

http://www.seattlecaraccidentlawyerb...cident_ki.html

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/199...-barrier-crash

http://gonebutnotforgotten.wordpress...-motorcyclist/

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-orange-county

http://www.4injured-losangeles.com/i...ident-kills-2/

http://www.newsday.co.tt/crime_and_court/0,145910.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...erstate_5.html

http://www.plg-pllc.com/washington-p...jury-attorney/

http://www.injuryinsider.com/2011/04...h-near-safeco/

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ncrete-barrier

[riffer]

For the sake of balanced content, here is some evidence of WRBs contributing to motorcyclist deaths:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIA...DER/41596.html

http://www.mravic.org.au/forum/modul...p?storyid=1017

It's a lot harder to find them.

[riffer]

From BRIFEN in Australia, who manufacture WRBs for Aussie, in response to a letter sent by a perthstreetbikes.com forum member who took them to task:

I acknowledge receipt of your email. Yes I am aware of the accident you mention, and would like to answer your email in a broader context and include comment on the recent death in Tasmania.

This is my 20th year of involvement with Brifen wire rope systems and the provision of a safer road environment is the one aspect that sustains my interest in the work. It is the very thought of protecting my "fellow man", my family and strangers alike that holds my interest. Wire rope barriers are very safe, indeed the safest of all barriers on several measures.

I am regularly in touch with motorcyclists, with police, with road authorities and with international road authorities. I know of no incident (and there have been very few) where our wire rope fence was the cause of death. If you have any details of a specific case please forward the Coroner's report and I will personally look at the case.

I personally have met with motorcycle groups since 1994, attended motorcycle gatherings and have participated in countless meetings with road authorities and road interest groups concerning motorcyclists. I am part of the Brifen Wire Rope Safety Fence world wide team for 20 years. We have looked at deaths as they are bought to our notice and not one death has been attributed to the Brifen fence.

On the contrary I had a motorcyclist phone me in September 1997 and thank me for introducing wire rope fences into Australia as the fence saved his life. The "incident" occurred in February 1997 near Alice Springs, when an experienced 48 year old motorcyclist riding a Ducati lost control on a broad bend at 140kph. The rider separated from his bike and both rider and bike slid independently towards the Brifen fence at an angle of 40 degrees. The rider took the impact with the post on his shoulder and cartwheeled along taking out three posts. His bike also took out three posts. (All these details were confirmed in writing from the road authority). When he rang me in September 1997 he had just returned from his first ride on that bike since the accident. He said - and I quote - "if it had been concrete barrier I would be dead, if had been a guardrail post I would be dead and if there was no barrier it was a long drop into a dry creek bed and I would be dead".

Now let us examine a recent accident that occurred on Sunday 6 January 2008 on the Bass Highway west of Devonport. Even "The Age" (refer extract below) got the facts wrong. Totally wrong.

The motorcyclist body never touched the fence. The poor rider simply fell and rolled 200 metres down the road. The bike impacted the fence and cartwheeled down the fence 214m. Local authorities said that the fence did it's job restraining and containing the bike. If the bike had of crossed the median into on coming traffic more death or injury may have resulted. I have been told that the estimated speed based on the projection of body parts and the bike path is between 200kph and 220kph. We will have to wait for the Coroner's report for better estimates.

There was a motorcycle accident in New Zealand (October 2007) which is still subject to a Coroners report but I can advise I was told that body parts were scattered over a 300 metre distance. There are more details which will come out in the Coroner's report but I am advised excessive speed in the midst of a three man race was a major factor. Other than Sunday's accident the most recent incident in Australia was in Perth in 2006 when a cyclist, I am told, was traveling at 200kph in a 100kph zone and hit a truck traveling at 100kph. The impact reportedly hurled the body through the air into the fence.

Unless we as a community start accepting responsibility for driver behaviour as being a factor in road death then constructive debate can go nowhere. Road barriers are designed and tested to meet specifications. Neither European specifications or American specifications call for motorcycle barrier protection at this time. However draft European specifications are leading the way for change and in the near future those specifications may be ratified.

At this time vehicle barriers are designed for sedan impacts at 100kph-110kph and motorcycle barriers for a test speed of 60kph. These recent impacts at speeds of 150kph-200kph and higher are clearly not in the design parameters of either type of barrier. It is often cited in motorcycle literature that the smooth concrete surface provides a motorcycle friendly barrier yet research shows little chance of a motorcyclist surviving impacts at angles greater than 20 degrees even at "normal" speeds.

There are now several motorcycle barrier systems developed in Europe that have been tested to meet motorcyclist sliding test impacts. There is some use of the systems in a couple of European countries and in Victoria in Australia (on a trial basis). However other road authorities want to have test results on "crash barriers fitted with the bike barriers" to ensure that the presence of bike barriers does not cause small sedan vehicles (in particular) to launch up and over the crash barriers. There is also the question of debris from some motorcycle barrier systems causing secondary accidents after a car or truck has damaged the motorcycle barrier.

Clearly the trend in the western world is towards development of motorcyclist barrier protection. The rate of attention to this issue has increased markedly in recent years, as both more products and more draft specifications appear. However the Bavarian experience should not be overlooked. A few years ago the Bavarian authorities installed post protection on guardrail fences on a winding mountain road in that scenic alpine region to protect motorcyclists. However the road speed of motorcyclists increased on that road and the accident rate did not decrease. The Authorities removed the post protectors. Once again the problem was rider behaviour.

Today, so many countries use wire rope barriers for one good reason, particularly where safety is of paramount importance (in countries such as Sweden), and that is because wire rope barriers are stunningly effective for reducing road crash fatalities and serious injuries. There appears to be an 80 to 90% reduction in road fatalities and serious injuries where ever these systems are installed. Indeed in Sweden it has been noted that motorcycle fatalities have dropped significantly on Swedish 2+1 roads where wire-rope systems have been installed because it prevents cross-over median crashes and helps control excessive speeding.
Worldwide there appears to be very few motorcycle crashes into wire-rope barriers. Where a motorcyclist has impacted a wire-rope barrier, it appears speed was a major causal factor leading up to the crash. However little is known about the circumstances that lead up to a rider loosing control and striking a roadside barrier i.e. speeding, fatigue, alcohol, inexperience, other vehicles, etc. One statistic that can be quoted is the growing number of motorcycle accidents (of all types) in the plus 35 age group due primarily to the growing number of motorcyclist in that age group, many riding a bike for the first time.
Let me add that as an indication of the growing importance of this topic, when we attended the TRB (Transport Research Board) Summer meeting in Rapid City South Dakota last July and one of the four breakout sessions was just devoted to motorcycle issues. Just this morning I received the agenda for the follow up meeting on Monday 14 January 2008 at the TRB Winter session in Washington DC.

Focus Topic Presentations
1. Motorcycle Safety and Longitudinal Barriers-Introduction.
2. The US Experience with Motorcycle Crashes.
3. NCAC Motorcycle Crashes & Road Features Study.
4. Motorcycle Crash Data Collection Project @ OSU.
5. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A USA Update.
6. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A Scandinavian Update.
7. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A United Kingdom Update.
8. Motorcycles and the Roadside. An Italian Update.
9. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A Spanish Update.
10. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A French Update.
11. New York Barrier Crashes Involving Motorcycles
12. Concepts from Italy to make the Roadside Safer for Motorcyclists.
13. Concepts from France to make the Roadside Safer for Motorcyclists.
14. Concepts from Spain to make the Roadside Safer for Motorcyclists.

Research money it starting to flow to enable academics to isolate the real issues in motorcycle crashes and then to develop strategies.
I hope that these comments broaden your perspective on a very important topic. A topic now of greater prominence and growing importance.
I hope that you take these comments and follow up on the research material available in rapidly increasing volume on the web, and also read Coroners Reports to get the correct details and not rely on the selective "colour" that the popular media uses for their story line.
With respect to your final question "Has BRIFEN conducted crash testing concerning motorcycles on these barriers?" I can say that Hill & Smith UK (the owners of Brifen patent) has not been tested any existing motorcycle barrier on Brifen fences. Some barriers are considered (by Hill & Smith UK) to be of poor design that would either result in a vehicle ramping up and over the crash barrier or that would leave debris after an impact and thereby may cause secondary accidents. However I am at liberty to advise that a product is being developed by Hill & Smith that will be fully tested (motorcycles and sedans) in coming months and hopefully will be available in 2009 if all goes well. However that product will be tested in accordance with exist crash standards and the product will not be tested for motorcyclists traveling at excessive speeds.
All I ask of you is not to quote any part of this full and lengthy reply out-of-context.If you are quoting this reply to a private letter, please use the entire script.

Regards

Paul Hansen
Brifen Australia
LB International Pty Ltd
Ph: +61 2 9631 8833
Fax: +61 2 9688 4503
Website: http://www.brifen.com.au

IMPORTANT
The information transmitted is for the use of the intended recipient only and may contain confidential and / or legally privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, disclosure, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may result in severe penalties.

Unless specifically indicated, this email does not constitute formal advice or commitment by the sender or LB International Pty Ltd.

If you have received this email in error, please notify LB International Pty Ltd, telephone +61 2 9631 8833 and delete all copies of this transmission and attachments.