Maori Licence

[ManDownUnder]

There is a B movie in this....

"The Revenge of the Lesbian Cannibal Bikers That Ate the Spice Girls"

or something

Cheers for that Paul... not very often I get the "I wish this thread had NOT been hijacked" feeling... but you did it for me...

MDU

[Jackrat]

What puzzles me is, why did the Maoris leave the tropical paradise of Hawaiiki to come to this climate. It wouldn't be because they were societal rejects there and forced to leave would it?
But seeing they are here and claim to be the rightful Govt, shouldn't we be demanding they fix all the infrasructural problems and give us taxpayers a break.

Well puzzle no more fella.
Legend has it that some dude ate some other dudes dog.
This started a war that the dog eaters backers lost.
So Dog eater an backers all jumped into a Waka an hit the road looking for a place to get away from EX dog owners backers.

There's a thingie explaining it in the AK musem.
The musem version is just a little more PC than mine.

[DingDong]

The (so called) Maori Govt did not hold refferendum(sp?) that I know about?
I am Ngai Tama, from the east coast (not far from Gizzy), I think they are going about things the wrong way.

We already have a Govt and they could win their vote in the usual manner and change laws they want to change not just invent new ones.

They are projecting themselves with an image of "we represent all maori" when they only Rep their members... most Gizzy Maori or Maori in general do not hold them in the highest regard.

They will be seen as hipocrits (spelling again?) because they have started this new Govt... to counter a crown Govt that has wrongly imposed rule over them... this new Maori Govt will wrongly impose ruling over over all Maori should they be a success.

If they try to tell me what to do... I will go freaky on them!

Representation of Maori needs to be done through the current Govt system, but maybe a crown lead Govt is not the best thing anymore...globalisation has complicated things far too much for us as a nation to step backward but we cant forget and must always respect Tino Rangatiratanga.

[Phurrball]

The (so called) Maori Govt did not hold refferendum(sp?) that I know about?
I am Ngai Tama, from the east coast (not far from Gizzy), I think they are going about things the wrong way.

We already have a Govt and they could win their vote in the usual manner and change laws they want to change not just invent new ones.

They are projecting themselves with an image of "we represent all maori" when they only Rep their members... most Gizzy Maori or Maori in general do not hold them in the highest regard.

They will be seen as hipocrits (spelling again?) because they have started this new Govt... to counter a crown Govt that has wrongly imposed rule over them... this new Maori Govt will wrongly impose ruling over over all Maori should they be a success.

If they try to tell me what to do... I will go freaky on them!

Representation of Maori needs to be done through the current Govt system, but maybe a crown lead Govt is not the best thing anymore...globalisation has complicated things far too much for us as a nation to step backward but we cant forget and must always respect Tino Rangatiratanga.

Well said WK -

Now, might I humbly suggest that those who authored the more vitrolic posts in this thread trot off to the bookstore/library and buy/borrow Michael King's History of New Zealand to get a little general background. It's an interesting and accessable read. Please do this. Lower levels of ignorance help keep everyone on a more even keel.

[Clockwork]

Well said WK -

Now, might I humbly suggest that those who authored the more vitrolic posts in this thread trot off to the bookstore/library and buy/borrow Michael King's History of New Zealand to get a little general background. It's an interesting and accessable read. Please do this. Lower levels of ignorance help keep everyone on a more even keel.

I'm curious. What makes you believe Michael King's version of history is any more accurate than any of his predecessors? And how does expressing an opinion that you do not agree with constitute ignorance?

[John]

Would be amazed to find any full blooded Maori around these days, in fact I will pay you to find me one, remember the mass prostitution and such, another thing the Europeans didn’t cause as much shit as has being said I think those scummy Dutch (or French to early to be thinking) did some dodgy shit in the lower south and tried to colonize NZ before the brits, but no because the Maori loved the brits.
There is no real established truths to the Moriori remember they just hung out in the lower south bays, the thing is the Maori welcomed us onto the land and offered it as a gift, sure it was taken advantage of and such, BUT the Maori themselves asked for help in governing there own people due to the introduction of alcohol and such which lead to some unruly little shits, so they asked the British council it for help they got it a few key words were lost in translation between the two races, but the thing is after a while they didn’t really care, they just wanted more of the European stuff, so when I hear all this other shit about "reclaiming" land it thoroughly fucks me off, And I can safely say that it was the most boring subject I studied, although I respect the far superior fighting ability of the Maori, which was light years beyond everyone else.

This is in no order and if you want me to actually go into detail I can :\

[RiderInBlack]

Well said WK -

Now, might I humbly suggest that those who authored the more vitrolic posts in this thread trot off to the bookstore/library and buy/borrow Michael King's History of New Zealand to get a little general background. It's an interesting and accessable read. Please do this. Lower levels of ignorance help keep everyone on a more even keel.

While I agree with a lot of what WK was saying, your assumation that we have not read-up on Treaty Of Waitangi related issues is miss guided. As part of me Nursing training I had over a year of having TOW and Moari issues crammed down my throat. The Tutors even allowed us an "open" decussion on. We were pressurised into only saying things that supported their views. The one student who claimed her right not to comment on it got hammered by the Tutors.
I well aware that The New Zealand Declairation of Independance (it's up at the TOW grounds) pre-dates the Tow and reconises Northern Moari Sovereignty.
I'v have been taught that the poor health stats for Moari is because their ancestor got land taken from them.
I suggest that you read early Scotish and Irish histroy and then try to explain why their health stats are not as bad as the Moari.

Although I have no issue with the general Moari populance, I do have an Issue with the Radicals. In fact I have an Issue with most Radicals of any race. That includes KKK and any other White Supremist.

[Jackrat]

Well said WK -

Now, might I humbly suggest that those who authored the more vitrolic posts in this thread trot off to the bookstore/library and buy/borrow Michael King's History of New Zealand to get a little general background. It's an interesting and accessable read. Please do this. Lower levels of ignorance help keep everyone on a more even keel.

I've read it several times.
I also have my own family tree,Wha hua Ngapuhi and Pakeha.
So what ? it's history.
Knowing about it changes nothing.
We can't change history.

[John]

I've read it several times.
I also have my own family tree,Maori and Pakeha.
So what,it's history.
We can't change history.

Yea but we can bitch and procrastinate its what we do, and we do it really well it would seem...

[Ixion]

I'm curious. What makes you believe Michael King's version of history is any more accurate than any of his predecessors? And how does expressing an opinion that you do not agree with constitute ignorance?

Ah, indeed. There are lies, and damned lies, and then there's history books. Nothing better than a history book for a good bit of light fiction reading.

[Phurrball]

[H]ow does expressing an opinion that you do not agree with constitute ignorance?

I'd be the first to put my hand up for being ignorant; I apologise for any linguistic imprecision on my part that may have led to your perception of my comment [I appreciate it could be seen this way: check the post time; I clearly ain't sleeping or thinking too 'good' at that hour]. I don't resile from the general thrust of my comment, as background and context is all important. My personal lightning rod in the sickly pre-dawn monitor light was the mention of that oft used concept of convenience in debates such as this: 'Moriori'. People who think the Moriori are in any way relevant to a debate of this kind, and in the same breath have a go at Mäori for 'whinging' based on the events of the past are making hypocrites of themselves. I do believe that background is critical in debate such as this, so that simplistic soundbites do not get slung back and forth with no real progress. Certain political parties are cynically exploiting a lack of background of this type at present for their own gain using simplistic soundbites and billboards. [I don't want to talk politics BTW, we all have our own, thank f**k for democracy in all its imperfect glory - I take issue with the way the message is presented on occasion]

I'm curious. What makes you believe Michael King's version of history is any more accurate than any of his predecessors?

Ah, indeed. There are lies, and damned lies, and then there's history books. Nothing better than a history book for a good bit of light fiction reading.

No history will ever be complete, and totally unbiased - there will always be issues of approach, be it top-down, bottom up or tainted by a presentist viewpoint. Consider for example that most history is the history of the 'victor', not the 'vanquished'. All one can do is read and consider the material in a broader sense WRT its purpose and origin in addition to its substantive content. Michael King's History is a good one IMHO as it is essentially a macroscopic review that draws upon a lifetime of scholarship whilst being easily accessible.

While I agree with a lot of what WK was saying, your assumation that we have not read-up on Treaty Of Waitangi related issues is miss guided. As part of me Nursing training I had over a year of having TOW and Moari issues crammed down my throat. The Tutors even allowed us an "open" decussion on. We were pressurised into only saying things that supported their views. The one student who claimed her right not to comment on it got hammered by the Tutors.

I agree, this style of 'education' is not helpful at all.

I'v have been taught that the poor health stats for Moari is because their ancestor got land taken from them.[/color][/font]
I suggest that you read early Scotish and Irish histroy and then try to explain why their health stats are not as bad as the Moari.

I don't think that early Scotish and Irish health is a relevant comparison to Mäori health issues of the past and present. Land being alienated from Mäori [in a number of ways] during early European colonisation would have an effect, but societal factors and novel bacterial and viral diseases being introduced to an immunogically naïve population probably account better for the differences in health between these geographically isolated populations.

Although I have no issue with the general Moari populance, I do have an Issue with the Radicals. In fact I have an Issue with most Radicals of any race. That includes KKK and any other White Supremist.

Theose on the extremes often lack a broader outlook, and can't see past their own prejudices. ON this we agree.

So what ? it's history.
Knowing about it changes nothing.
We can't change history.

Knowing about history gives us the foresight to avoid the mistakes of the past [Crikey that sounded idealistic...something like that anyway...]

BTW I am not a historian so I can't claim any high ground of scholarship.

[Brian d marge]

linguistic imprecision

I cant even say that let alone spell it ,,,,, Must stop this drinking lark ,,,its me hobby so I might pass a motion at the next meeting

Any hoo that chap, ,,,I dont reconise your laws we have our own ! He definatly gets a beer from me for trying it on!!!

( hey I bounced off a diplomat once ,,and the old bill behing me said he could do nought ,,,because of the D on the plate !!! )

Worth a try!!???? next time you cop a Ticket ,,,Sorry yrLudd but ... I am !/54 appalatian so therefore cannot bheld to the laws defined by another athority ( Please........I beg you bring back fone etic spelling !!)

I like that man already ,!! no ...MOT cos ..ForSalee here dont need one""""\

Love it
Nite all
Stephen

[Clockwork]

For the record, I haven't read Michael King's book, or any other work on New Zealand history to be honest (yes, I really do speak from ignorance).

I used to think history was factual, then I learned that no, history too is a "living document". While I agree with the sentiment that... if we don't learn from history we are doomed to make the same mistakes, I don't think its helpfull to re-evalutate history in the light of modern morality. Nor do I think its helpfull to attempt to make redress for its inequities beyond an individual's lifetime, after all, where do you stop?

General questions for all. Can anyone see a logical end to the Grievance Industry, by attempting to meet all its demands can it ever be satisfied? Does continuing to focus on our past drain energies better directed to our future?

[inlinefour]

Hmmmm...

Jus started reading that link to Moriori stuff. It seems that the Europeans did a pretty good job of stuffing things up for the Moriori before the Maori came and finished the job.
Not a pretty history.

Aint that the truth. However some of us reckon we'll blame everyone else? WTF, get over it and move on! Life is what yer make of it, not all about bloody hand outs. As for the crap liciece/rego/wof things. Give them ALL tickets, that should sort the BS out.

[Jackrat]

For the record, I haven't read Michael King's book, or any other work on New Zealand history to be honest (yes, I really do speak from ignorance).

I used to think history was factual, then I learned that no, history too is a "living document". While I agree with the sentiment that... if we don't learn from history we are doomed to make the same mistakes, I don't think its helpfull to re-evalutate history in the light of modern morality. Nor do I think its helpfull to attempt to make redress for its inequities beyond an individual's lifetime, after all, where do you stop?

General questions for all. Can anyone see a logical end to the Grievance Industry, by attempting to meet all its demands can it ever be satisfied? Does continuing to focus on our past drain energies better directed to our future?

General Question ??wow better ask Mr Peters and Brash,they seem to think they have the answer
Personaly I don't belive an end is any place close.
I once asked my Gt grandmother to tell me about life when she was a child.
She wouldn't talk much of those days, but I did know she was a child in Gisborne/Opotiki area when Te Kooti was on his main campains.
Although she and her family were Maori they were teriffied of the guy and his followers.She was the last of my family that could of given a first hand account of life back then an it always bothered me that she wouldn't.As a result,in resent times a neice and I have traced our family history right back to when William Gough first arrived in NZ,his marriage to the eldest dauther of "Wharepapa of Nga Puhi" and the resulting violence that followed.
With the help of a local "so called Maori activist" we found out why an how things were done in those times.We had a pretty hard time coming to grips with just where we had come from.
It involved murders,kidnaping,the exchange of fire arms for women ect ect.
We ended up wondering just who we should be the most disgusted and ashamed of,Wharepapas people who were willing to prostitute their own women for personal gain or William Goughs people who were willing to exchange guns for anything they could lay their hands on.
Times were just different aye!!
Goughs marriage to Wharepapas dauther was a business arrangement that went sour.Wharepapas people tryed to take her back.they failed an Gough was called "Tomohawk Gough" by Wharepapas people ever after.
You work it out!!
So we now know why my Gt grandmother didn't want to talk about it.
We also know why some Maori radicals won't/can't let it go.
The Maori lady that helped me trace my family history warned me I probably wouldn't like a lot of what I found.
I didn't understand what she was on about at the time,I certainly do now.
Kings book is an interesting over view but it doesn't really address Maori culture,their intertribal reationships or their relationships with early settlers on a personal level.
As such, I think it's pretty irelivent to the greivence industry,because that does operate on a very personal level.