What would you prefer?

[rastuscat]

does it??? with my time on the road (and I spend ALOT of time on it) we currently have some of the slowest drivers we've ever had in my driving life... But as speed went down so did driving ability it seems,

Yes, and given that drivers are as bad as we all bang on about, isn't it a good thing all the bad drivers have slowed down?

as now we have some of the worst drivers we ever had (again my driving life)

So yes they've slowed people down, but to the detriment of safety & driving ability, is that really a win???

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/road-deaths/toll.html

I'd call THAT a win. I'd be okay with lots more people being killed on the roads, as long as I could nominate who they were.............

Oh so tempting to relate the lower road toll to the changes in enforcement BUT I know we are just a part of the equation. Better cars, better engineering, higher petrol costs, updated legislation. These things all play a part. But so does our enforcement.

Okay, bring on the derision.

But why, really, do we bang on about how we have the worst drivers in the world, then bitch when we try to slow these people down so that when they crash (as is inevitable, given that the OP (other people) are such crap drivers)? Huh? Maybe we just let those really crap drivers (other people, obviously not us), drive and crash as fast as they want.

Harumph.

[Jack Miller]

Interesting bunch of responses.
Not sure what to read into it.
Maybe I'll just go hide in a bush and dish out some usual responses. It seems to be easier to just default to that then actually try to find out what might work.

You're too smart for that. I think it's time for a career change. You're on a hiding to nothing trying to improve road safety as a Popo for two reasons:

The first is well put by the AA in their discussion paper on issues for the 2020 NZLT Safety Strategy:
"To date the NZ approach to road safety has been to make crashes and their causes illegal and make preventing them a role for the Police. In fact, Police cannot prevent many crashes because many are not caused by illegal activity"

The second is because you can't control the behaviour of all Popos. There ARE some Popos who make the roads less safe by their enforcement antics. Their existence undermines the credibility of any Popo-initiated safety campaign. Furthermore, there are even Popos who's riskily operated vehicles have maimed and even killed motorcyclists. Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this it sets up an impossibly difficult environment for you as a Popo.

Like any career change this will take some initial personal investment, but only time, not money (except perhaps the odd ferry ticket to get you & your bike across Cook Straight for some North Island meetings.) Get yourself round the interested parties including ACC, AA, BRONZ, Bike & safety gear retailers & importers, riding schools, Steven Joyce, & others that you'll be aware of. Ask them what they'd like to see done about motorcyclist safety (ACC might want to say "get them off the road" but I doubt they'd say it out loud) and give them your initial thoughts. Then process everything they said and your own ideas and come up with a plan. Take them all through the plan - even get them all together in one place for the presentation if you can. You're a Popo that wants to make a difference - they'll come. Then ask them for a job to implement the plan. You'll get one of three responses:
1. One of them will say yes
2. Some or all of them will agree to form a consortium to pay you
3. One of them will say "interesting plan, we can't cover it all but we were thinking of getting someone to do X, which is a good part of it. Here's the job description we were drafting. Want the job?"
Of course you might get the 4th response: "no thanks" from everyone, but I doubt it.

You sound frustrated where you are, which is inevitable if you want to make a difference to motorcyclist road safety. Time to take your vocation to the next step I think.

[Scuba_Steve]

Yes, and given that drivers are as bad as we all bang on about, isn't it a good thing all the bad drivers have slowed down?

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/road-deaths/toll.html

I'd call THAT a win. I'd be okay with lots more people being killed on the roads, as long as I could nominate who they were.............

Oh so tempting to relate the lower road toll to the changes in enforcement BUT I know we are just a part of the equation. Better cars, better engineering, higher petrol costs, updated legislation. These things all play a part. But so does our enforcement.

Okay, bring on the derision.

But why, really, do we bang on about how we have the worst drivers in the world, then bitch when we try to slow these people down so that when they crash (as is inevitable, given that the OP (other people) are such crap drivers)? Huh? Maybe we just let those really crap drivers (other people, obviously not us), drive and crash as fast as they want.

Harumph.

The bad drivers came with the slower speeds. Speed has been inforced to the detriment of safety.

See that "win" as the Govt & like to claim is misleading to say the least, swap everyones modern airbag'd, safety cages for the old 80's piece of steel & see how those rates hold up!!!

Oh and we mustn't forget less than 30% of fatalities are caused by "speed" or drink less than 30%. using the same warped process you guys use to justify your stats that shows "speeding" saves lives

[Kickaha]

does it??? with my time on the road (and I spend ALOT of time on it) we currently have some of the slowest drivers we've ever had in my driving life... But as speed went down so did driving ability it seems, as now we have some of the worst drivers we ever had (again my driving life)

How long has your driving life been?

I'm not so sure the % of shit drivers now is any worse than when I started (30 years ago) there's just more of them due to higher traffic volume and easy finance

So yes they've slowed people down, but to the detriment of safety & driving ability, is that really a win???

I'm not so sure that's provable

Remember when we had an 80kmh speed limit? the driving was just as shit then as it is now with a 100kph limit

[slowpoke]

Unlike some who see a flash of blue and the hackles go up, I can't say the pohlees are doing too bad a job. They've got a job to do and as in any occupation you'll get all sorts doing it: good bad and indifferent. Look around at your place of work you'll see exactly the same, so why do some people expect the police to be any different?That's life, get used to it.

Ultimately the responsibility lies with the individual, which is what I am. I'm not part of some motorcycling collective and don't wish to be. I'm not a rabid car/cop/society hating outcast with something to prove. I'm a bloke with my own priorities, own reasons for riding, own abilities, own decision making abilities, own flaws etc etc and just happen to ride a motorcycle. I'm an individual that pretty much avoids other motorcyclists on the road unless I know them personally.

So as far as the police "engaging with motorcyclists".....I dunno. I'd hate to be lumped in with many of the other people posting on here....but for people looking in from the outside that's almost impossible.

My 2c says the best chance of altering peoples mindset is when they're starting out. It's pretty hard to change someone once they've been riding for a few years and all too often the only way they'll learn or change is through something catastrophic. Catch them at the rider training stage (which needs to be far more vigorous) 'cos that's when they're soaking up all the info/attitudes and are happy to acknowledge they don't know it all.

[slowpoke]

How long has your driving life been?

I'm not so sure the % of shit drivers now is any worse than when I started (30 years ago) there's just more of them due to higher traffic volume and easy finance


I'm not so sure that's provable

Remember when we had an 80kmh speed limit? the driving was just as shit then as it is now with a 100kph limit

On the money Kick.

Higher traffic volumes, much faster cars for our pissed up youngsters (not many of my learner's Hillman Hunter around, haha), all travelling at a 25% higher speed....and still the road toll/per capita is dropping.

People have short memories, or no memory at all.

[Berries]

I'm not part of some motorcycling collective and don't wish to be. I'm not a rabid car/cop/society hating outcast with something to prove. I'm a bloke with my own priorities, own reasons for riding, own abilities, own decision making abilities, own flaws etc etc and just happen to ride a motorcycle. I'm an individual that pretty much avoids other motorcyclists on the road unless I know them personally.

Well put.

What works best for me is if I am minding my own business, how 'bout you mind yours.

Stopping me for a 'chat' about anything other than an infringement will be met with contempt.

Even better well put(?). I am not going to listen to advice from someone who doesn't ride, or someone in their 20's or anyone with anything to do with ACC.

I would suggest concentrating on ticketing those who are breaking the law - perhaps even targeting some of the crash promoting offences, and if you want to make a real difference to motorcycle safety take your experience and move on.

May the force not be with you, so to speak.

[Flip]

I participated in plenty of the Honda Rider Training courses back home in West Aussie and the Police were not only in attendance but they actively taught the participants.......

I can't imagine anything worse, going on a training course and finding it full of Honda riders, Rrozzas and Auzzies, its enough to put me off riding.

[Metastable]

Well in California they do something really cool, you could do something similar. There they have police officers that do trackdays and race and even offer instruction out on the track.

You could do something similar to California like:

Give the culprit an option
1 - ticket
2 - doing a trackday nearby.... for this they will be obligated to have proper gear and a bike that is prepped properly.... plus they will get to experience the track and be coached. Therefore the goal is to make them wear proper gear, have a good running motorcycle and teach them valuable riding skills which will make the roads a safer place for all. Plus hopefully they will end up doing the crazy speeds at the track instead of the road. I think the rider is on the hook for the cost of the trackday, but that is usually cheaper than the ticket anyway.

[george formby]

I would read into it: Use your discretion.

and a liberal sprinkling of common sense in the application of duty.

[Scuba_Steve]

How long has your driving life been?

I'm not so sure the % of shit drivers now is any worse than when I started (30 years ago) there's just more of them due to higher traffic volume and easy finance

less than yours but have spent almost all of it on-road

I'm not so sure that's provable

Remember when we had an 80kmh speed limit? the driving was just as shit then as it is now with a 100kph limit

nope not really provable but there is a reason they don't base their success on accidents or per km travelled basis (hint it doesn't look as good when you do)
I wasn't round for the 80km/h maybee the impression of worse drivers is because of the higher concentrations? but I'm bloody sure people have just got worse, & how they're being taught by the "officials" would also suggest this, people should be appalled at what the young'ins are being taught now

[Taz]

But as speed went down so did driving ability it seems, as now we have some of the worst drivers we ever had (again my driving life)

So yes they've slowed people down, but to the detriment of safety & driving ability, is that really a win???

It's simple really. The message is that at or under the magical speed limit you are not at any risk of having an accident so therefore because you now drive at 95 as opposed to 105-115 you don't need to pay as much attention to your driving or be constantly scanning for danger/popos. People only die when you speed. It says so on the signs and propaganda.

[wysper]

an invitation to attend Police training or training where the Police participate in the training course and are viewed by others as fellow riders.. I participated in plenty of the Honda Rider Training courses back home in West Aussie and the Police were not only in attendance but they actively taught the participants through some aspects of the course.. though I know the West Aussie Police have a pretty full on driver training program in place whereas I have no idea the competence of the NZ Police rider training program..
BUT
the active participation of the Police is a two-way gate in that it shows the Police which riders want to better themselves, who needs what sort of training and that we realise we know we benefit from training.. it also shows our fellow motorcyclists that the Police (riders) are people who ride, who understand what motorcycling is about and who also benefit from training.. they need to engage with motorcyclists as much as we need to engage with them.. it builds kudos both ways which can only benefit everyone

I like this idea, I would participate in that.

At best this forces frustration, it also forces us to stay in road trains that are dangerous and get more so as all the drivers' tempers rise the longer it goes on, instead of simply zapping past into the safety of a less densely trafficked section of road. This is very significant to motorcyclists who are both more at risk in a road train and more easily able to zap out of it. A

This is interesting, I read this sort of thing alot. How is it more dangerous? How many riders get nailed in a line of traffic as opposed to out on their own on the road?

I imagine the answer will be that you have several vehicles driven by people that don't pay any attention and are trying to kill you makes it unsafe. But I suspect that if you are in the line of traffic the guy in front of you knows you are there, the guy behind you does too, the guy looking to pull out from a side road sees a whole line of traffic and waits, rather than misses seeing a lone biker and pulls out in front of them.

I understand that it is more enjoyable on your own rather than in a line of traffic and that probably feels safer, less things threatening you or in you space.

I am not going to listen to advice from someone who doesn't ride, or someone in their 20's or anyone with anything to do with ACC.

Generally speaking I would agree with you, but once you close your mind you stop learning. Sometimes gems of wisdom can come from the most unexpected sources. And utter crap can come from so called experts.

[James Deuce]

I'd like to know what the fuck it is I'm supposed to have done? You seem to be assuming that we're all guilty of something and "need" to talk to the Police.

How about we both just do what is expected of us and leave the training and engagement of road users to people who are skilled enough to use indicators on roandabouts.

[James Deuce]

Yes, and given that drivers are as bad as we all bang on about, isn't it a good thing all the bad drivers have slowed down?



http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/road-deaths/toll.html

I'd call THAT a win. I'd be okay with lots more people being killed on the roads, as long as I could nominate who they were.............

Oh so tempting to relate the lower road toll to the changes in enforcement BUT I know we are just a part of the equation. Better cars, better engineering, higher petrol costs, updated legislation. These things all play a part. But so does our enforcement.

Okay, bring on the derision.

But why, really, do we bang on about how we have the worst drivers in the world, then bitch when we try to slow these people down so that when they crash (as is inevitable, given that the OP (other people) are such crap drivers)? Huh? Maybe we just let those really crap drivers (other people, obviously not us), drive and crash as fast as they want.

Harumph.

The reality is that the velocity of the other vehicle is often irrelevant to a motorcyclist. Speed isn't the issue in a motorcycle vs. other vehicle incident, or motorcycle vs. road-side furniture incident.

Teaching people to actively scan for motorcyclists and teaching motorcyclists not to put themselves where they can get hurt would work much better - for motorcyclists.

A 150 km/hr combined speed head-on is much more survivable car vs. car than a 200 km/hr combine speed. It would make no difference to a motorcyclist except for not spreading the bits as far.