So have we all given up on ACC?

[NONONO]

Carry on missing the point, as usual.
Do nothing, as usual.
BTW, only two types of men, wankers and liars, which are you?

[bogan]

Those who formed mag and others had been pulling at the supporters long before mag was formed.

What's even more amazing is that despite an obvious lack of meaningful support they are still trying to live the dream over two years after the movement died.

So we pulled all the support away, but kept none of it for ourselves? We must be really shit at this

Lets face it, there was about 8000 attendees to the bikoi, and many more supporters. Since then all the groups combined efforts probably account for less than 10% of the number, bikers simply aren't in it for the long haul, they gave it a hoon, then shuffled off quietly.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Carry on missing the point, as usual.
Do nothing, as usual.
BTW, only two types of men, wankers and liars, which are you?

No doubt the sort of rhetoric that has won you so much support to date.

There are actually a lot more than two types of men. It is sad that you see your potential role in life limited in such a way and it speaks volumes as to your own motivation in these matters.

My previous closing remark was obviously spot on.

[flyingcrocodile46]

So we pulled all the support away, but kept none of it for ourselves? We must be really shit at this

In a nut shell

[yungatart]

I don't see how slagging other folk off will actually do us any good...but it has a lot to do with our lack of success...

[Fatt Max]

The Croc and I rode in company with another brother to the Bikhoi.
So no points scored there FM, however far away from the actuality of what did happen anyone is, they are entitled to their opinion.

Well thats all good and good onya,

I fully appreciate the need for an opinion, in fact I have copped so much shit on this site (and privatley) for promoting that but thats like.

Crocs post pissed me off, not because he posted it as an individual (I dont know you dude as much as you know me so fairs fair) but it did echo a lot of the comments and shit that I and other took at the time.

To quote:

Perhaps next time it would help if those who would be united helped in the unity bit, rather than grabbing a corner and pulling in a different direction (like last time?). Damn hard to unite an army when new and different Generals are popping up all over the place

I actually got called a 'interfering cunt' for trying to unite the various biker groups to decide on a single message. I felt and still feel that the only way we could have made a huge impact was to get a common message across and get it out there. That included everyone that was affected. Unfortunatley I was very much shut down on that front.

I dunno if anyone else felt the same way but my enthusiasm evaporated when I saw all the 'unity destroying' grandstanding by self elected champions of the cause, I was disgusted and immediately decided it was a dead duck. IMO the shoulder climbing wannabe's are the ones who killed what was initially (under Bronze & Ulysses) a massive level of support

The problem here was that the BIKEOI had how many thousands in attendance but BRONZ Auckland for example could only muster something like 300 members. The chance to get the numbers together was lost when the BIKEOI was not followed up. That was a frustration felt bt a lot of people and as a result the AAG was formed and later MAG.

As for Ulysees, correct me if I am wrong but didnt the President accept the levy reduction 'on behalf of all bikers'. I dont think he had any right to do that and, as I saw first hand, they lost a lot of their support. Granted it may have been a badly judged statement but FFS.....

So now you know, you can stop laying the blame at the feet of the 'apathetic foot soldiers who fled the cause'. It was clearly a case of too many wannabe heroes destroying the campaign support (by whinging and pulling in differing direction) just so they had shoulders on which to climb to ever more grandiose and inspirational heights

I agree with you here after a few reads of this. You are dead right mate. Many of these 'wannabee heroes' were thise keyboard warriors who slagged and slated the efforts of those who tried to get out there and make a difference. The real problem I beleive was a lack of effectiove leadership across the entire community. We need someone who can unite and inspire (Mel Gibson did a good job in Braveheart, he is not busy at the mo, he might be able to help us......)

Here again I was fucking abused verbally and through wanky PM's by so called frineds when I kept making the point about the need for a single and concise message. What's the point of 500 bikers gridlocking the major cities if we collectivley have nothing to say.

Dumb fucks destroyed the support and played straight into the governments hands. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Yes and I beleive we all have to shoulder some of the blame for this. I certainly do. There is so much now I wish I had done at the time but had neither the time, conviction and support. The words 'If Only' echo through my mind every time I think about that.

Fuck you very much

You did say your post was not a dig at me mate and thats cool. I will take this as an offer next time you are in town......xxxx

Apologies Croc for the rather coarse and uneducated content of my post in response to the points you raised. Maybe its best I keep out of the protest threads because its never got me anywhere in the past and I am also aware that I am, and I quote:

"A dumb fat pommie cunt who should shut his fucking mouth and fuck off back to England"

See you at the bakery I suppose....

[bogan]

In a nut shell

Lets just hope everyone isn't too busy blaming others to think about what they could have done better (be they part of a group, or potential supporters). Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it requires actually looking back!

[Fatt Max]

Lets just hope everyone isn't too busy blaming others to think about what they could have done better (be they part of a group, or potential supporters). Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it requires actually looking back!

Yeah mate, its worth doing it to know.

Whats the chances of the protest movement pushing ahead? I suppose the MSAC or MOTO or whatever they are called have had a chance to justify their existance, but is it justified yet?

Funny enough I was talking to a member of a very high profile MC last night and he made the point that NZ'rs dont know how to protest. He said that the biker movement got so hung up on upsetting and disrupting people that it was no surpirse it ended up a toothless tiger. He went to the BIKEOI and saw nothing but support for the bikers from the public because of the Who's Next message, something that was never followed up. I beleive we had the chance to be the catalyst for a much larger protest movement. ACC would have been the issue to tie us all together and then, as a community, we would have had the numbers to force the other campaigns that are exclusivley biker related.

Hence I beleive strong, connected, savvy and motivated leadership capable of uniting the groups was the missing component.

If that leadership rises then I will be there with bells on. I still feel very strongly about the whole thing and moreso the further damage governments are going to people in general.

Who's Next...??....that could have been a massive campaign....is it too late?

Hard to say. Tell you what though, we could all go and occupy Aotea Square like the lentil suckers and see what happens......oh hang on, its raining, poor little rich kids might get wet

[flyingcrocodile46]

Well thats all good and good onya,

I fully appreciate the need for an opinion, in fact I have copped so much shit on this site (and privatley) for promoting that but thats like.

Crocs post pissed me off, not because he posted it as an individual (I dont know you dude as much as you know me so fairs fair) but it did echo a lot of the comments and shit that I and other took at the time.

To quote:

Perhaps next time it would help if those who would be united helped in the unity bit, rather than grabbing a corner and pulling in a different direction (like last time?). Damn hard to unite an army when new and different Generals are popping up all over the place

I actually got called a 'interfering cunt' for trying to unite the various biker groups to decide on a single message. I felt and still feel that the only way we could have made a huge impact was to get a common message across and get it out there. That included everyone that was affected. Unfortunatley I was very much shut down on that front.

I dunno if anyone else felt the same way but my enthusiasm evaporated when I saw all the 'unity destroying' grandstanding by self elected champions of the cause, I was disgusted and immediately decided it was a dead duck. IMO the shoulder climbing wannabe's are the ones who killed what was initially (under Bronze & Ulysses) a massive level of support

The problem here was that the BIKEOI had how many thousands in attendance but BRONZ Auckland for example could only muster something like 300 members. The chance to get the numbers together was lost when the BIKEOI was not followed up. That was a frustration felt bt a lot of people and as a result the AAG was formed and later MAG.

As for Ulysees, correct me if I am wrong but didnt the President accept the levy reduction 'on behalf of all bikers'. I dont think he had any right to do that and, as I saw first hand, they lost a lot of their support. Granted it may have been a badly judged statement but FFS.....

So now you know, you can stop laying the blame at the feet of the 'apathetic foot soldiers who fled the cause'. It was clearly a case of too many wannabe heroes destroying the campaign support (by whinging and pulling in differing direction) just so they had shoulders on which to climb to ever more grandiose and inspirational heights

I agree with you here after a few reads of this. You are dead right mate. Many of these 'wannabee heroes' were thise keyboard warriors who slagged and slated the efforts of those who tried to get out there and make a difference. The real problem I beleive was a lack of effectiove leadership across the entire community. We need someone who can unite and inspire (Mel Gibson did a good job in Braveheart, he is not busy at the mo, he might be able to help us......)

Here again I was fucking abused verbally and through wanky PM's by so called frineds when I kept making the point about the need for a single and concise message. What's the point of 500 bikers gridlocking the major cities if we collectivley have nothing to say.

Dumb fucks destroyed the support and played straight into the governments hands. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Yes and I beleive we all have to shoulder some of the blame for this. I certainly do. There is so much now I wish I had done at the time but had neither the time, conviction and support. The words 'If Only' echo through my mind every time I think about that.

Fuck you very much

You did say your post was not a dig at me mate and thats cool. I will take this as an offer next time you are in town......xxxx

Apologies Croc for the rather coarse and uneducated content of my post in response to the points you raised. Maybe its best I keep out of the protest threads because its never got me anywhere in the past and I am also aware that I am, and I quote:

"A dumb fat pommie cunt who should shut his fucking mouth and fuck off back to England"

See you at the bakery I suppose....

Lol I like you

I know that a lot of the events that occurred as they did weren't the desired results and I accept that shit happens despite best intentions. History is history and we all are supposed to learn from it. It just erks me that some haven't learned. I am aware of some of your input along te way and never saw it as anything other than positive in intent and (as far as I know) outcome.

I really didn't mean to single you out in any way and certainly didn't intend to infer that your individual actions were amongst those at which my rant was directed. Indeed, if you did try to achieve unity rather than fragmentation then you were one of the good guys, in my eyes. While I accept that I just gave up on the cause.

[Fatt Max]

Lol I like you

I know that a lot of the events that occurred as they did weren't the desired results and I accept that shit happens despite best intentions. History is history and we all are supposed to learn from it. It just erks me that some haven't learned. I am aware of some of your input along te way and never saw it as anything other than positive in intent and (as far as I know) outcome.

I really didn't mean to single you out in any way and certainly didn't intend to infer that your individual actions were amongst those at which my rant was directed. Indeed, if you did try to achieve unity rather than fragmentation then you were one of the good guys, in my eyes. While I accept that I just gave up on the cause.

All good mate

I am sensing that there are rumblings starting up again. The cost of living is going up and everything is hitting everyone in the pocket. A lot of bikers I have spoken to lately are looking at their regos and wondering why the fuck they are paying so much and why the fuck something more was done.

Interesting development...

Now we see the surplus in ACC so there is the big question as to when we see our reduction.

How are the crash stats doing? What are they now as compared to, say, 2 or 3 years ago? Did this government promise to reduce levies if the stats come down?

People are asking these questions I believe. Is there someone out there who can take it on now...??

[flyingcrocodile46]

All good mate

I am sensing that there are rumblings starting up again. The cost of living is going up and everything is hitting everyone in the pocket. A lot of bikers I have spoken to lately are looking at their regos and wondering why the fuck they are paying so much and why the fuck something more was done.

Interesting development...

Now we see the surplus in ACC so there is the big question as to when we see our reduction.

How are the crash stats doing? What are they now as compared to, say, 2 or 3 years ago? Did this government promise to reduce levies if the stats come down?

People are asking these questions I believe. Is there someone out there who can take it on now...??

From memory they had about the same amount in reserve at the start, they were never broke, they just weren't making the targeted operating cost/profit and surplus that had been set back under the previous national govt leadership (the 3.5 billion isn't their annual operating cost surplus).

If we are ever to see a rebate it would be a hard won one, and personally I question whether the amount of effort required would be justified by the 'likely watered down result'. Best chance is to get a revision of fees for multi rego holders IMO.

I don't believe that an undertaking for a stat based reduction was given or implied.

As for your last question, While there is always a possibility that a suitably charismatic individual could pull it off, I know it ain't me (unqualified) and think they would almost certainly need to arrive by working through an existing well structured, recognised (qualified) and respected organisation. Rather than starting from scratch and attempting to earn the required credibility with faceless thousands by way of bike forum preaching and repeating accusations of apathy toward the would be supporters. A different approach is needed. IMO

[flyingcrocodile46]

Yeah mate, its worth doing it to know.

Whats the chances of the protest movement pushing ahead? I suppose the MSAC or MOTO or whatever they are called have had a chance to justify their existance, but is it justified yet?

Funny enough I was talking to a member of a very high profile MC last night and he made the point that NZ'rs dont know how to protest. He said that the biker movement got so hung up on upsetting and disrupting people that it was no surpirse it ended up a toothless tiger. He went to the BIKEOI and saw nothing but support for the bikers from the public because of the Who's Next message, something that was never followed up. I beleive we had the chance to be the catalyst for a much larger protest movement. ACC would have been the issue to tie us all together and then, as a community, we would have had the numbers to force the other campaigns that are exclusivley biker related.

Hence I beleive strong, connected, savvy and motivated leadership capable of uniting the groups was the missing component.

If that leadership rises then I will be there with bells on. I still feel very strongly about the whole thing and moreso the further damage governments are going to people in general.

Who's Next...??....that could have been a massive campaign....is it too late?

Hard to say. Tell you what though, we could all go and occupy Aotea Square like the lentil suckers and see what happens......oh hang on, its raining, poor little rich kids might get wet

Top post.

In hindsight it was probably an excellent opportunity to have organised a low key non-disruptive and possibly very effective country wide petition. If the community support had been capitalised on. Who knows, we may have managed 2 or 5 hundred thousand signatures by having well mannered bikers politely attending big shopping centers and public events. (if we ever could have agreed on a few simple petition objectives). It really was a great opportunity.

[bogan]

Top post.

In hindsight it was probably an excellent opportunity to have organised a low key non-disruptive and possibly very effective country wide petition. If the community support had been capitalised on. Who knows, we may have managed 2 or 5 hundred thousand signatures by having well mannered bikers politely attending big shopping centers and public events. (if we ever could have agreed on a few simple petition objectives). It really was a great opportunity.

Not sure how many signatures we got, but we did do the well mannered (for the most bit ) shopping center petition gathering. I'm pretty sure it was mid dec right after the bikoi.

[Fatt Max]

Not sure how many signatures we got, but we did do the well mannered (for the most bit ) shopping center petition gathering. I'm pretty sure it was mid dec right after the bikoi.

Yeah mate, you and so many others got out there. Unfortunatley certain figureheads either didnt or wouldnt bother to stand up and be counted, or felt the best way to run a movement was through silence and a measure of exclusivity.......thats govenment tactics isnt it....?

I for one was really wrapped by your personal contribution Bogan, I know the work and effort that it took

[Flip]

I would be interesting to know what the reduction in funds collected for the ACC motorcycle group is and compare this against any reduction in the number and cost of bike related ACC claims for the same time. It might prove to be damming evidence that putting the ACC up actually cost the govt money.

I only have one modern registered bike, all the others are farm or vintage. I went on all the local Chch protest runs, went to Wellington (and helped out on the day) for the big protest and signed all the petitions, was even prepared to help with some of the civil disobedience protests that folk were talking about.

As a long term Ulysses and Hog member I do not believe they had the mandate to lobby on the ACC issue for all bikers. I did join BRONZ, who did have the mandate to act as a lobby group, but after being abused by the the prezy I told them to stick their membership where the sun don't shine.

Where did we go wrong? There was no published long term strategic plan, no buy in by the great unwashed and no review. BRONZ got very close but they were too well intentioned, did too much listening and not enough doing.

Let me ask you one thing. After being lied to by the government about the state of the ACC accounts and being used as a cash cow to bulk up the account, how many of you are still going to vote National at the election? Its ironic that many of us feel strongly enough about The ACC fiasco to back stab our fellow bikers for sport but not strongly enough to vote the buggers who caused the problem out of government.

We mostly deserve what we got.