HD has finally sorted the water cooling issue

[Flip]

Bare with me here, this will go somewhere...I think.

I know Harley riders aren't all about the power, (which has always left me wondering why almost none get left standard), but isn't it better to have a more efficient motor? The best way a manufacturer can reduce emissions, is to create a motor that burns as much of the fuel in the combustion chamber as possible.

Why don't Harley then chuck the cams up top? If ya think about it, using a very similar shaped head as the knuckle it is possible that at first glance most people wouldn't spot it.

It has more to do with compression ratio, combustion chamber shape and valve timing than the position of the cam. Overhead cam motors make more power because they have less reciprocating valve train mass and can rev faster without the valves bouncing.

Harley is a marketing leader because they listen to their customers and build the bikes the buyers want, unlike the Japs who build bikes then discount them until they sell. The market has said they want a air cooled push rod 45deg V twin with a single carb, design within this framework.

Buckets and shims need maintenance, my TC88 motor with hydraulic lifters has done 100,000 without any maintenence other than oil.

[The Lone Rider]

Harley is a marketing leader because they listen to their customers and build the bikes the buyers want, unlike the Japs who build bikes then discount them until they sell. The market has said they want a air cooled push rod 45deg V twin with a single carb, design within this framework

1. "Leaders" is arguable, but they certainly have a marketing team that can convince some people to buy

2. XV 650 line, if i recall, was the top selling cruiser of 2011 internationally - in gross income and sales numbers. Harley had bikes in position 3 4 and 5.

3. I suspect a great deal of the "market" you are referring to, consists of people who already own or have owned Harleys. And why not? They bought into the "harley thing", why would they not want more of the same.

The marketed image has more to do with Harley Davidson, than the bikes.


Edit -

To correct myself -

"In 2010, the 650 version [of the XVS] had the largest sales wordlwide in cruisers than any other of it's class."

It would seem the XVS 650 was what "the market" wanted that year.

[avgas]

"In 2010, the 650 version [of the XVS] had the largest sales wordlwide in cruisers than any other of it's class."

It would seem the XVS 650 was what "the market" wanted that year.

Not entirely true. You are comparing 1 Yamaha against a league of HD.

Here is another comparison. http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive...p_Cruisers.htm

Note also that even though HD only sell cruiser bikes......they were 5 in terms of sales in Aus http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive...rter/Total.htm

and in the same period the HD XLX was 9th highest selling bike http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive...er/Top_Ten.htm

So they must be doing something right.

but this is all irrelevant when you take into consideration that the 'market' flip is talking about, and the 'market' you are talking about are actually completely different from each other. But that lesson will have to wait for another lesson.

[The Lone Rider]

Not entirely true. You are comparing 1 Yamaha against a league of HD.

Here is another comparison. http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive...p_Cruisers.htm

Note also that even though HD only sell cruiser bikes......they were 5 in terms of sales in Aus http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive...rter/Total.htm

and in the same period the HD XLX was 9th highest selling bike http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive...er/Top_Ten.htm

When you, or I, find complete data on total sales compared to production level internationally - a more accurate picture could be formed. Total sales to production, I believe would be the only way to define which "Brand" is in more demand.

As it stands though - model to model, the XVS was the bike the market wanted. You only need the one model, XVS, to sell better than any Harley to show which model of bike was in demand. In 2010.

[popelli]

When you, or I, find complete data on total sales compared to production level internationally - a more accurate picture could be formed. Total sales to production, I believe would be the only way to define which "Brand" is in more demand.

As it stands though - model to model, the XVS was the bike the market wanted. You only need the one model, XVS, to sell better than any Harley to show which model of bike was in demand. In 2010.

what is the resale value of an XVS?

compare that to a harley and 9 times out of 10 the harley will win

and that is what the market really does want

[The Lone Rider]

what is the resale value of an XVS?

compare that to a harley and 9 times out of 10 the harley will win

and that is what the market really does want

Can you find some statistics that state that the purchase decisions in the cruiser market are driven by the want for resale value?

And if the market was driven by resale value, why did the XVS out sell any Harley model in 2010? Would not bikes with more 2nd hand value, be the ones that sold the most?

You can't claim the market wanted a particular Harley model because of it's resale value, when the XVS sold the most. Perhaps if data on total sales compared to production (and availability) where published, you may find Harley as a brand had the best (or most?) sales.

Proving it's because of resale value though?

I don't know about you, but I buy a bike to ride. Not to sell. Nor do I buy a bike with the intention or possibility of it being viewed as a veblen good.

[scumdog]

And if the market was driven by resale value, why did the XVS out sell any Harley model in 2010? Would not bikes with more 2nd hand value, be the ones that sold the most?

.

Probably because more people could afford to buy an XVS than could afford a Harley.

And not too many 650 Harleys out there to be bought.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Probably because more people could afford to buy an XVS than could afford a Harley.

And not too many 650 Harleys out there to be bought.

And it's their way of (nearly) looking to some like they have in fact got a Harley, because it's actually what they really desire to own.

[avgas]

As it stands though - model to model, the XVS was the bike the market wanted. You only need the one model, XVS, to sell better than any Harley to show which model of bike was in demand. In 2010.

Not entirely true again. If it were we would all own toyota corrolla's and and C50 scooter. After watching TV on our samsung set, sitting on IKEA furniture we would think about buying an XVS cruiser.

You see where I am coming from when I said "Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective.

Long story short. Harley are what is called a "Low Level Product Leader" - they ride heavily on a brand, and they clearly segregate themselves and their designs from their competitors - this is why Harley asks for a premium and targets a completely different market from most of the customers. Yamaha's Cruiser division Star is what is called a borderline Operational Excellence/Customer Intimacy. Their market is not the premium purchaser, but the general consumer.
Imagine Shelby looking at the sales figures for the year, then saying "We're losing market share to people buying MX5's!!!!"
"Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective. You need to compare apples with apples. Or in this case budget low cost 650 cruisers with budget low cost 650 cruisers.
What the mass market wants may not be what market Harley is tailoring too. They have a brand to maintain (unfortunately).

[The Lone Rider]

Not entirely true again. If it were we would all own toyota corrolla's and and C50 scooter. After watching TV on our samsung set, sitting on IKEA furniture we would think about buying an XVS cruiser.

You see where I am coming from when I said "Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective.

Long story short. Harley are what is called a "Low Level Product Leader" - they ride heavily on a brand, and they clearly segregate themselves and their designs from their competitors - this is why Harley asks for a premium and targets a completely different market from most of the customers. Yamaha's Cruiser division Star is what is called a borderline Operational Excellence/Customer Intimacy. Their market is not the premium purchaser, but the general consumer.
Imagine Shelby looking at the sales figures for the year, then saying "We're losing market share to people buying MX5's!!!!"
"Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective. You need to compare apples with apples. Or in this case budget low cost 650 cruisers with budget low cost 650 cruisers.
What the mass market wants may not be what market Harley is tailoring too. They have a brand to maintain (unfortunately).

Re:

Veblen good. I do understand your point on how a Yamaha is marketed to anyone who wants to ride, whereas the Harley is, for lack of a better description, marketed to the Harley aficionado. A "premium" item if you will.


We aren't talking sales over many years. As far as I understand you, you're suggesting I'm saying the high rate of sales of Corollas and C50s in total, mean there is a high demand for them [now].

The XVS statistic is for 2010 and 2010 bikes only. It is simply a result of sales showing the 2010 XVS sold the most in 2010. I was suggesting that result indicates the demand of the market for that year.

At peak sales when corollas and c50 dominated over competitors (however many years back that was), the demand for them was clearly there driving the market. When those sales dropped and something else was selling hot, it would seem to me the demand of the market has gone elsewhere. Corolla and c50 may have sold more over time then similar products but it doesn't imply the year(s) to come have a demand for them, even if they remain the highest selling vehicles.

To my understanding and conjecture.

And not too many 650 Harleys out there to be bought

Fortunately you only need a 650 XVS to out perform an 833 Harley. 2nd hand, they can also come at similar pricing. Although yes the sporty leans on the more expensive pricing.

And it's their way of (nearly) looking to some like they have in fact got a Harley, because it's actually what they really desire to own

I guess by the same token, most of what Harley put onto a track is a rip off of Japanese made bikes?

Tell you what, get a pen and paper and doodle a unique version of a cruiser that is "not harley looking".

You might find there are only so many ways to invent the wheel. Likewise, why a lot of the GP bikes share some rather big visual similarities.

What would the V-max and Diavel be classed as? Their sitting positions are somewhat similar to some cruisers, yet have some very strong "sports bike" lines and shape to it.

[Scouse]

What would the V-max and Diavel be classed as? Their sitting positions are somewhat similar to some cruisers, yet have some very strong "sports bike" lines and shape to it.

your cluching at straws now matey and you are the gayest twat on this site no wonder that your name is "the lone rider" is your real name Nigel no mates (except for your chutny ferret buddies)

[Flip]

Show me some one with Yamaha tattoed on their arm and I will show you a million Harley tats.

Its really as simple as that, a Yamaha is a vehicle to ride to work on a Harley is a lifestyle choice. OK so the 10 people in the Yog dissagree with me but the 2.6 million in Hog do.

[Drew]

Show me some one with Yamaha tattoed on their arm and I will show you a million Harley tats.

A strong argument, that Harley cater to the lowest common denominator indeed.

But they do well from the brand name, no question.

I don't see why though, they cannot at least try to make their motors efficient. I'm not saying they need to make a sports bike motor, just that they could half the fuel usage and make the same power/noise/looks as what they've got.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I don't see why though, they cannot at least try to make their motors efficient. I'm not saying they need to make a sports bike motor, just that they could half the fuel usage and make the same power/noise/looks as what they've got.

Hate to tell ya this Drew...but Harley's and Buells are really frugal.

[The Lone Rider]

Tattooing is slightly different that what bike you buy. In saying that, I believe Harley Davidson is the most tattooed emblem ever or somewhere in the top 10. Harley wins hands down in tattooing.

You may be right about Yamaha being ridden to work more, but what does it say about Harley owners if they only ride on a Sunday afternoon? If they predominately only ride on a Sunday I mean.

"Lifestyle" from owning a particular brand is the HD marketing.

It effects my lifestyle riding my bike to work every day, riding out of town every 2nd weekend, doing my shopping, going to pay bills, going over to friends places, checking in with my parole officer (joke) more than it would if I only pull out my bike in the weekend.