Safer Journeys for Motorcycling

[Katman]

there are very good logical reasons why motorcyclist fare better in skill studies

- Everyone has a car, bikes (like car enthusiasts) are a "niche" market of those whom actually want/enjoy them & the road
- Bikers (like car enthusiasts) tend to hang out or catch up with other bikers, we are our own little community & we like to talk about bikes so we learn skills, techniques, dangers from others in our group, general car driving population (exception to enthusiasts) don't have this. (this is our biggest advantage to helping bikers stay safe, get them in with other bikers whom will "show them the way" as such)
- Bikers either do it right or feel the pain, car drivers just have higher premiums for screwing up. Humans learn through physical pain.
- Bikers tend to get an appreciation of their machine learn how it responds, its capabilities etc. general public car drivers don't care
- Bikers have to stay aware, if someone else screws up we feel it. We don't want to!
- Bikes take more attention to operate so we tend not to get the "daydream driving" effect like those with cruise control automatic cars

just to mention a few

So we do all that and still crash as often as we do?

Doesn't sound like skill to me.

[trustme]

Could you name the studies , I would like to have a look. Our accident statistics don't support what sounds like an urban myth. Kind of like boy racers defending their behaviour & trying to tell us they are good drivers who can handle their cars.

Is the universally reviled boy racer any different from the the drop kick rider who does wheelies , stoppies, overtakes on yellow lines, does 300kph on public roads. We all hate boy racers yet defend our right to do equally dumb shit. TPTB & Joe Public are not totally stupid they can see through the double standard.

Riffer, I for one do not want to see a huge crack down or increased policing. Anecdotaly I am aware that a large number of riders are unliscenced after being stopped & checked at Whatawhata. Copper said you would be very surprised just how many riders are unliscenced
I don't like Conquiztadors restitting every 5 years & doctors certs etc, I do support training but would prefer the use of incentives rather than compulsion.

30 years ago drink driving was almost the norm, today it is socially unacceptable, we haven't eradicated it but situation has improved partially due to enforcement but also due to publicity campaigns designed to reeducate us

30 years ago I can remember banging on the doors of the bike importers to get funding for a Bronz campaign for improved motorcycle safety, bugger all progress has been made in the last 30 years, not for want of effort by Bronz & others. I would like to see the following

1/ A standardised graduated training regime, subsidised by ACC, importers of both motorcycles & accessories, bike dealers, & who ever else can be roped in like insurance co's
2/ Every buyer of a new bike gets a training course subsidised by the importer/ ACC
3/ Every used bike sold the dealer/ACC subsidise the course Yeah i know it doesn't catch private sales but baby steps.
4/ A no claims or performance bonus introduced to the ACC levy , the longer you ride without a claim the lower your levy [ probably too difficult to administer ]

I don't bag any of you guys working at the coal face, had a go & realise what a thankless task it is when the people you are trying to help seem unable to reach any sort of consensus

[Katman]

Could you name the studies , I would like to have a look.

It was probably a study carried out by Performance Bikes magazine.

[nosebleed]

It was probably a study carried out by Performance Bikes magazine.

There's the problem...SuperBike ftw.

[Scuba_Steve]

So we do all that and still crash as often as we do?

Doesn't sound like skill to me.

I would call Chris Pfeiffer, Valentino Rossi, Guy Martin etc all skilled riders. You wanna look into how much they've crash???

Could you name the studies , I would like to have a look. Our accident statistics don't support what sounds like an urban myth. Kind of like boy racers defending their behaviour & trying to tell us they are good drivers who can handle their cars.
Is the universally reviled boy racer any different from the the drop kick rider who does wheelies , stoppies, overtakes on yellow lines, does 300kph on public roads. We all hate boy racers yet defend our right to do equally dumb shit. TPTB & Joe Public are not totally stupid they can see through the double standard.

I'm gonna see if I can find it again I'm pretty sure it was in AA (of all places) but it was a couple years back now.
Also this was about bikers being higher skilled, that doesn't mean we don't like to "push the limits" or we don't crash. Like above I'd class those riders as skilled but just look at how much they've crashed to acquire that skill & even with the skill doesn't guarantee they won't crash again.

[Katman]

I would call Chris Pfeiffer, Valentino Rossi, Guy Martin etc all skilled riders. You wanna look into how much they've crash???



I'm gonna see if I can find it again I'm pretty sure it was in AA (of all places) but it was a couple years back now.
Also this was about bikers being higher skilled, that doesn't mean we don't like to "push the limits" or we don't crash. Like above I'd class those riders as skilled but just look at how much they've crashed to acquire that skill & even with the skill doesn't guarantee they won't crash again.

Until road riding motorcyclists begin to equate skill level with amount of miles ridden without crashing instead of getting from A to B the fastest we are going to continue to be fucked over by TPTB.

[MSTRS:Me]

Are you saying that hitting a bit of gravel and crashing shows a greater skill level than a car driver???

Gah! Thud!
Put MrAverageMotorist on a bike and he'd crash before the gravel...

I'm realistic enough to realise that no matter how skilled a rider is (and an average rider has way better skills across the board, than the average car driver) bikes are still inherently unstable and do not cushion the rider from harm IF the rider turns out to be human and makes a mistake or misses seeing one thing that may cause him trouble.

However, I agree with what you say in general terms. Motorcyclists have far too many, totally avoidable crashes.
So does every other type of motorist BTW

[Katman]

So does every other type of motorist BTW

I agree entirely John.

Not much we can do about them though.

[avgas]

Until road riding motorcyclists begin to equate skill level with amount of miles ridden without crashing instead of getting from A to B the fastest we are going to continue to be fucked over by TPTB.

Its a tough one. I know that most of my crashes have happened within about 5km of the house. Yet I have done 300+km rides in a day without fault.
Likewise I have ridden stupid speeds and not crashed, and then done below the speed limit and ended up in hospital.

And I have followed the occasional born-again/fresh squid, and wondered what angel seems to be looking after them while they poodle along loosely all over the road.

[Clockwork]

Most motorbike accidents don't involve motorists
Hence TPTB find it easier to cull motorcyclists by legislation.
That will only stop when the collective WE get our act together & improve our safety record

Clockwork you have to stop thinking it is everyone else that is the problem.
When did you last go on a training course ? Are your skills as good as they could be ?

Everyone moans about the poor standard of driving in NZ. What makes us think that we as riders are any better.
There is no logic to that assumption

Nuts!! I've never said it was anyone else that was the problem I'm just tired of people trying to make it my problem.

FWIW I suspect that by world standards NZ drivers on the whole are pretty bloody good. Yes there are too many f**kwits on our roads, I see that as more of a cultural issue and no amount of training is going change their attitudes. Making licenses harder to get and keep won't stop these people, they're already largely immune to the sanctions that the state can/will apply, they're already ignoring fines and driving without licenses anyway.

Sure, Kiwi drivers could do some things better but many of these could be improved if TPTB spent just half the money they spend nagging about speeding and drink driving to point out common errors and encourage courtesy and consideration to other road users. Do it in a factual, humorous non-patronising way.

Then, if the authorities stopped using double yellows or flush medians as some sort of traffic calming measure and simply used them to indicate where there is not enough visibility to safely pass. Or used compulsory Stops only where you simply cannot negotiate the intersection safely without stopping, then may be they wouldn't become devalued in the eyes of the public to the point where some drivers feel justified in ignoring them.

[trustme]

Nuts!! I've never said it was anyone else that was the problem I'm just tired of people trying to make it my problem.

FWIW I suspect that by world standards NZ drivers on the whole are pretty bloody good. Yes there are too many f**kwits on our roads, I see that as more of a cultural issue and no amount of training is going change their attitudes. Making licenses harder to get and keep won't stop these people, they're already largely immune to the sanctions that the state can/will apply, they're already ignoring fines and driving without licenses anyway.

Sure, Kiwi drivers could do some things better but many of these could be improved if TPTB spent just half the money they spend nagging about speeding and drink driving to point out common errors and encourage courtesy and consideration to other road users. Do it in a factual, humorous non-patronising way.

Then, if the authorities stopped using double yellows or flush medians as some sort of traffic calming measure and simply used them to indicate where there is not enough visibility to safely pass. Or used compulsory Stops only where you simply cannot negotiate the intersection safely without stopping, then may be they wouldn't become devalued in the eyes of the public to the point where some drivers feel justified in ignoring them.

Cool, don't dare snivel about your ACC levy, don't dare snivel when flouro apparel becomes compulsory , don't dare snivel at any form of legislation designed to reduce the road toll that will undoubtedly affect your enjoyment of motorcycling . Be comfortable in the knowledge that it is not your fault.

[Clockwork]

Cool, don't dare snivel about your ACC levy, don't dare snivel when flouro apparel becomes compulsory , don't dare snivel at any form of legislation designed to reduce the road toll that will undoubtedly affect your enjoyment of motorcycling . Be comfortable in the knowledge that it is not your fault.

That's some f'd up logic. Surely as its not my fault I have every effin right to snivel.

[James Deuce]

FWIW I suspect that by world standards NZ drivers on the whole are pretty bloody good. .

No. They're not.

[scumdog]

- Bikes take more attention to operate so we tend not to get the "daydream driving" effect like those with cruise control automatic cars

just to mention a few

Hmm, I've had several bikers tell me how they had started falling to sleep while riding - or said how they couldn't remember passing through a section of road etc

And unless you're on a naked bike I guess on straightish roads there's bugger-all difference between car and bike when it comes to likelihood of 'daydream driving' syndrome.

[MSTRS:Me]

Then, if the authorities stopped using double yellows or flush medians as some sort of traffic calming measure and simply used them to indicate where there is not enough visibility to safely pass. Or used compulsory Stops only where you simply cannot negotiate the intersection safely without stopping, then may be they wouldn't become devalued in the eyes of the public to the point where some drivers feel justified in ignoring them.

What a novel idea!!
Actually warning of 'real' danger and giving the motorist the opportunity to actually think about what they are doing/seeing.
Nah...it'd never work.

And unless you're on a naked bike I guess on straightish roads there's bugger-all difference between car and bike when it comes to likelihood of 'daydream driving' syndrome.

That's because the speed limit isn't realistic.
Yes - I expect you to go all cop on that statement, but you know exactly what I mean...