LAMS Harley

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yes this complicates matters. Of course I may be able to buy a 2012 model, sold new in 2014. How will the LAMS system cope with that ?

Or the Hyosung Dealer may say, these bikes are actually assembled in my workshop, ergo I can tweak the ECU back a little and certify it as LAMS compliant and have a bike that learners can legally buy.

As long as the NZTA says its LAMS, then I guess its LAMS even if its not.

With regard to the 883 becoming a 655, its actually a pretty small piston diameter change, due to the motor being such a long stroke.

If HD were convinced that it would sell enough I'm sure it would be done at the factory.

I'm not sure that anyone needs to learn on a bike that weighs, what, 200+ kg dry?

Theres an interesting thread on it on the Kneeslider: a US based site but catering for most walks of motoring life, from the H-D guys, to the sprotbikers, and the custom bike (cafe, bobber, tracker) guys. Richard Pollock from Mule is a regular contributor.: heres a link to a recent discussion about it:

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...e-motorcycles/

[Squiggles]

How does Scumdog know when he pulls me over that my bike is on the magic list ?

Probably something simple like a different colour/marking on the license sticker if its a learner legal bike.

[p.dath]

Issue 279 of "Live to ride" includes the interesting suggestion that Harley Davidson are considering making a 655 cc version of the 883 Sportster for an Oz LAMS compliant Harley, which if the KB experts are correct would become NZ compliant.

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.

You could only assume that other manufacturers will be playing the same game.

That 600cc super sports (that makes way to much power for LAMS) will be available in a suitably re-chipped LAMS version.

How are the cops going to tell on the side of the road what bikes are LAMS compliant ?
Will it just become a defacto 660 cc limit ?

I've actually spoken to a senior Police official about this. He told me he didn't know how it was going to be Policed (and he was one of the people that sets the policy ..).

He said his first problem was the law doesn't say how the 150kw/tonne is to be measured (e,g. at the wheel, at the crank shaft, etc) or how the weight of the bike is measured (wet, dry, with rider, without rider, etc).

I'm guessing the road side Policing will end up using a simple list. Is the registered make and model on the list - yes or no.

[davereid]

I've actually spoken to a senior Police official about this. He told me he didn't know how it was going to be Policed (and he was one of the people that sets the policy ..).

He said his first problem was the law doesn't say how the 150kw/tonne is to be measured (e,g. at the wheel, at the crank shaft, etc) or how the weight of the bike is measured (wet, dry, with rider, without rider, etc).

I'm guessing the road side Policing will end up using a simple list. Is the registered make and model on the list - yes or no.

That's interesting. If the law says 150 kw/tonne, thats like saying the speed limit is 100km/hr. Simple, and easy to understand.

If it is careless about inclusion of rider or fuel, shit you end up with the situation where a fat rider is legal with an empty tank, a thin rider legal with a full tank, and err bloody hell.

Then if you have a bike NOT on the list, but clearly legal, the NZTA may be liable for the riders legal costs if he defends it.

On the other hand, if they say you bike is legal when it is not, that would be down to them, particularly if you hadn't modified the bike.

Why would the NZTA take that on ?

They say the speed limit is 100, and leave it up to you to make sure you do less than 100, and up to the police to prove you were doing more than 100. They don't certify speedos etc etc, thats up to the driver.

If the law says LAMS is 150kw/t why would they take the risk of certifying that ? Surely it should be like speed limits.?

Law is set. Drivers responsibility to comply, police job to catch non compliance.

I mean if they publish a list thats giving a mandate to all bikes that are on that list.

And better still - if they put it on the licence label, thats a get out of jail free card for-ever for the rider.

After all I bought that bike NOT KNOWING the previous owner had de-restricted it. NZTA label CERTIFIED it was ok. Mens Rea your honour.

[SMOKEU]

That's interesting. If the law says 150 kw/tonne, thats like saying the speed limit is 100km/hr. Simple, and easy to understand.

I don't understand it. How is the power output going to be measured? At the crank, or at the rear wheel? Dry weight or curb weight? What if the manufacturer does not state the power output?

One manufacturer could rate their power output at the crank, whereas another manufacturer could rate the power output at the back wheel. How do you get around that? Put the bike on a dyno and find out? What about differences in dyno calibration? There's no simple way to convert bhp to whp without knowing driveline losses.

Even though the difference may be small, it could still mean the difference between yes and no for LAMS compliance.

[tigertim20]

I don't understand it. How is the power output going to be measured? At the crank, or at the rear wheel? Dry weight or curb weight? What if the manufacturer does not state the power output?

One manufacturer could rate their power output at the crank, whereas another manufacturer could rate the power output at the back wheel. How do you get around that? Put the bike on a dyno and find out? What about differences in dyno calibration? There's no simple way to convert bhp to whp without knowing driveline losses.

Even though the difference may be small, it could still mean the difference between yes and no for LAMS compliance.

if the info on a particular bike is not easily available, it wont be on the list.
if the info isnt presented to them in a format THEY want, it wont be on the list. simple.

as far as your last line, you are dead right, however given the decisions made by government surrounding motorcycles in the last year or two, we are fucking lucky they didnt completely pull out of the whole LAMS proposal, and leave us on 250's forever.
The government isnt going to give a fuck about one bike being a yes, and another bike being a no.

also, you point out that there isnt a way to perfectly determine the power of the bike, well, I would put money down to support the theory that even the units the police use to detect speed are not perfect. they will have a margin of error attached, be it operator or conditions derived, or the result of their programming, however even in the face of an imperfect measurement, they have set down their rules, and make do with what they have. I imagine it will be much the same for measuring power to weight.

[tigertim20]

If it is careless about inclusion of rider or fuel, shit you end up with the situation where a fat rider is legal with an empty tank, a thin rider legal with a full tank, and err bloody hell.

the fat rider should give up all the KFC then.
you are overthinking the idea. they will create a calculation through which they will define what is acceptable and what is not. one rumour (and it is only that) was that the calculation would consider the average rider weight as being 80kg.

[Gremlin]

I think it's all being over-thought (but then it's a government anyway). If manufacturing data is available, it is used to determine eligibility (I would imagine a standard dry or wet weight figure, rider not included). If a manufacturer wants something odd ball to be approved, it's on the importer/manufacturer to prove it's eligible. They would receive the benefits from that status anyway.

The list is hard and fast (but updated with additions). If it isn't on the list, it's not permitted. Easy to police.

[StoneY]

There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

Funny you should ask...friend of mine in the South island has one of those.... it died.
Cannot get parts or a motor for it without selling her soul to the devil either.

Ended up getting a motor from an Aussie wrecker I think

[scracha]

But I bet they sell though...all those guys who bought a Honda because there wasn't a Harley suitable for their licence catagory will now be able to side-step gayness and go 'straight' to a Harley!

The day a moustached black leather tassel wearing Harley Davidson riding bubba biker calls me gay he'll get a smack in the mouth






(Unless he's got a purty mouth)

[scumdog]

The day a moustached black leather tassel wearing Harley Davidson riding bubba biker calls me gay he'll get a smack in the mouth






(Unless he's got a purty mouth)

Hmm, a tad uber-sensitive....not a little homophobic are you?





Or is this behaviour standard for Honda riders???

[Kickaha]

If HD were convinced that it would sell enough I'm sure it would be done at the factory.

Can't see it ever happening, I really doubt the numbers would add up to make it worthwhile

[jasonu]

Can't see it ever happening, I really doubt the numbers would add up to make it worthwhile

Unless a similar law was put into effect in the USA (which will never happen).

[caspernz]

Based on power to weight, wont all Harley Fergasons be LAMS approved?

Oh that'll offend some....

Got me thinking that instead of reducing the power output, perhaps on some bikes ballast can be added to achieve power to weight for the licence period?

[jrandom]

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200

Not since 2007 (as Katman already mentioned). He didn't elaborate, but he's told me the story in detail in the past.

The 883s have thinner cylinder sleeves now. You can't just bore them out. The conversion effectively requires a whole new motor.

So don't go buying an 883 thinking you can turn it into a 1200 any more - you're talking enough thousands of dollars to do it that you might as well have just bought a 1200 to start with.

The 1200 motor is pretty sweet. I never thought it was really suitable in the Buells, it seemed wheezy (which it definitely is in comparison to motors like the Ducati 1000DS) but in a feet-up sit-back bone-shaking Sportster it's perfect. Particularly with opened-up filter, pipe and dyno tuned fuelling. Just the right amount of power.

They all weigh the same, though. 1200s, 883s, and presumably the proposed 655cc. It's a 250kg bike. Very nicely balanced with the weight down low, but the motor still has to pull that weight along. The 1200cc motor works well in it, but a 655cc motor would be taking the piss.

And it'd probably still cost about $14,000. I believe any learner would do better to wait with spending that kind of money until they were fully licenced and could take their pick.