Electric motorcycles

[Captain_Salty]

Yea i'm not sure there are any batteries out there that can candle much more than 5 years of daily charge/discharge, and they aren't cheap. Plus their range will suffer in the cold, on hills and with spirited riding. A bike does seem more realistic than a car though except silent bikes aren't gonna be any safer.

[240]

As I have pointed out before, the problem with electric vehicles is not the motor. The electric motor is a wonderful device that will potentially out-power and out-torque anything you shove fossil fuel in.

But the battery in the Chevy volt weighs 175kg.

And it contains (after you charge it from your coal fired power station) the same amount of energy as a litre of petrol, that weighs less than a kg.

The electric vehicle is ready to go. And it will dominate the transportation world within a few years of us developing an effective way of storing electrical energy.

But until then, it remains an elusive dream.

Nope it wont dominate squat have a look at post number three

[p.dath]

It looks like electrification is over before it even began.
...The article says that with the advent of new internal combustion engine technology advances at this years Detroit motor show the manufacturers are developing new petrol engines as they can now achieve the same economies as hybrids and electric I will quote "with advances in internal combustion efficiency electrification is fading into the background"...

I don't think there is much argument that "today" most things about petrol engines are better (apart from torque and power). And we continue to use them because the are cheaper.

However Petrol will only go up in cost. Wait a couple of decades, and choosing a petrol engined transportation device may no longer make sense. However we need to be working on the issue with electric vehicles now - not once the crude oil supply in the ground is substantially eroded.

As I have pointed out before, the problem with electric vehicles is not the motor. The electric motor is a wonderful device that will potentially out-power and out-torque anything you shove fossil fuel in.

But the battery in the Chevy volt weighs 175kg.
...

+1. We need better energy storage devices.

[Tigadee]

Forget batteries (unless something more powerful than lithium ion is invented), the future could be miniaturised fusion power plants, hydrogen fuel cells, etc. Not technology that currently exists...

[Lelitu]

Forget batteries (unless something more powerful than lithium ion is invented), the future could be miniaturised fusion power plants, hydrogen fuel cells, etc. Not technology that currently exists...

a very good point, and there is ongoing research on all of these technologies.

Davereid is right, electric motors are already approaching theoretical maximum efficiency, it's the energy storage that is letting them down. and that is a really nasty problem in physics

[baffa]

The technology is there, it is just extremely expensive.

I was reading about a paint that has been developed that acts like a solar panel. Imagine riding your bike to work, and leaving it in the sun to charge before heading home.

Realistically hydrogen power is a better option, it's just a shame noone seems to want to pursue it.

[bogan]

Davereid is right, electric motors are already approaching theoretical maximum efficiency, it's the energy storage that is letting them down. and that is a really nasty problem in physics

It depends how you are judging them, I would say the energy storage currently is adequate for a significant number of commuters, more so if they can park at a charge station. Obviously if you stack it up against a petrol vehicle for all day driving it isn't going to cut it. The problem is people don't want more than one vehicle, so they get one that can do it all. I think there is a niche for small, energy efficient, very low maintenance electric commuter vehicles; but it's going to take some damn good marketing to open it up.

[Lelitu]

It depends how you are judging them, I would say the energy storage currently is adequate for a significant number of commuters, more so if they can park at a charge station. Obviously if you stack it up against a petrol vehicle for all day driving it isn't going to cut it. The problem is people don't want more than one vehicle, so they get one that can do it all. I think there is a niche for small, energy efficient, very low maintenance electric commuter vehicles; but it's going to take some damn good marketing to open it up.

for a lot of people it's not a matter of wanting a vehicle that can do it all
as it is of needing one that can.

I cannot afford to own two vehicles, even if I could afford the purchase cost
the running costs are too high, and I need more range than current electric vehicles have available.

[bogan]

for a lot of people it's not a matter of wanting a vehicle that can do it all
as it is of needing one that can.

I cannot afford to own two vehicles, even if I could afford the purchase cost
the running costs are too high, and I need more range than current electric vehicles have available.

Like I said, marketing is the key; the actual running cost of an electric + petrol will be less than just running the petrol. Rego/wofs/insurance may tip the balance back the other way though. Purchase cost/devaluation of two vehicles over one will be a big hitch in the scheme also. I'm not a marketeer, and don't have the solution, but I believe the niche is there to be exploited.
I am an engineer though, and can think of one extreme dual fuels solution. Dual engines! Swap out your petrol for the electric when just doing commuter work.

[TrentNz]

[davereid]

Like I said, marketing is the key; the actual running cost of an electric + petrol will be less than just running the petrol. Rego/wofs/insurance may tip the balance back the other way though. Purchase cost/devaluation of two vehicles over one will be a big hitch in the scheme also. I'm not a marketeer, and don't have the solution, but I believe the niche is there to be exploited.
I am an engineer though, and can think of one extreme dual fuels solution. Dual engines! Swap out your petrol for the electric when just doing commuter work.

Hmm engine in a cassette eh.

I like that idea.

I'm not convinced about the running cost though Bogan.

If petrol did not include tax other than GST, what would it cost per kw/hr ?

I cant instantly put my hands on the data, but I seem to recall that a litre of petrol yields around 10kw/hr of energy, plus or minus debates about octane.

So 1/kw/hr costs about $0.23, around the same cost as currently untaxed electricity at day rate.

I can't imagine TPTB would allow wide spread usage of electricity for vehicles if they could not apply some sort of road tax, and with smart meters soon to be all our homes then that's entirely viable.

My petrol engine is very inefficient, and I can't yet take advantage of regenerative braking or no fuel usage at the lights, but both these things are very close.

Even I was able to do half my travel on the charge I get at home at night rate, the return trip would be fuelled at full day rates plus the tax.

My car will need nothing other than petrol and oil for 20 years that the electric car didn't need. But during that period the electric car will have spat 4 or 5 battery packs.

Google says a Prius battery is US$2995 so even if I only put three in during my 20 year operating life I have spent $US9000 or around $US10 a week. Thats going to be $10 I should add to my fuel costs if I am being fair.

I think the electric vehicle is the future, but until we get that environmentally destructive battery pack out of the equation, we are better off with fossil fuels.

[bogan]

Hmm engine in a cassette eh.

I like that idea.

I'm not convinced about the running cost though Bogan.

If petrol did not include tax other than GST, what would it cost per kw/hr ?

I cant instantly put my hands on the data, but I seem to recall that a litre of petrol yields around 10kw/hr of energy, plus or minus debates about octane.

So 1/kw/hr costs about $0.23, around the same cost as currently untaxed electricity at day rate.

I can't imagine TPTB would allow wide spread usage of electricity for vehicles if they could not apply some sort of road tax, and with smart meters soon to be all our homes then that's entirely viable.

My petrol engine is very inefficient, and I can't yet take advantage of regenerative braking or no fuel usage at the lights, but both these things are very close.

Even I was able to do half my travel on the charge I get at home at night rate, the return trip would be fuelled at full day rates plus the tax.

My car will need nothing other than petrol and oil for 20 years that the electric car didn't need. But during that period the electric car will have spat 4 or 5 battery packs.

Google says a Prius battery is US$2995 so even if I only put three in during my 20 year operating life I have spent $US9000 or around $US10 a week. Thats going to be $10 I should add to my fuel costs if I am being fair.

I think the electric vehicle is the future, but until we get that environmentally destructive battery pack out of the equation, we are better off with fossil fuels.

In my experience, fuel only, I pay about 1.5c per km on my electric, and 11c per km on my other bike, which I think shows that purpose built commuters offer significant advantage over multipurpose vehicles to begin with.

But assuming the energy cost is the same as per your example, and assigning a 40% efficiency for petrol and 80% for electric. Say 10c and 5c fuel cost respectively, add 4.4c for road tax (RUC rates), would leave 0.6c per km for battery refills. So for a 3k battery pack, you have to do 500,000km between battery replacements to break even. However in my case, I got 5.1c for batteries, which gives 60,000km for break even, or if I can avoid taxes, 32,000km.

So a) road tax is a motherfucker b) better/cheaper batteries would be nice c) we are probably in the right ball-park (not a hell of a lot of data on km/battery pack yet) for break even at the moment d) petrol will get more expensive.

I also like to think those who go electric early are encouraging the development and sustainability or an electric fleet, lot of infrastructure/tech changes required, and gradually building up to them might make things a lot easier.

Need some fucking pebble bed antimatter reactors or something, that'll sort us out!

[davereid]

I also like to think those who go electric early are encouraging the development and sustainability or an electric fleet, lot of infrastructure/tech changes required, and gradually building up to them might make things a lot easier.

Need some fucking pebble bed antimatter reactors or something, that'll sort us out!

Yeah in spite of all my research and all my nah nah nah, I am going to be riding one myself in the not to distant future. Just cant help myself lol

[ducatilover]

[Badjelly]

I was reading about a paint that has been developed that acts like a solar panel. Imagine riding your bike to work, and leaving it in the sun to charge before heading home.

A non-starter, I'm afraid. The energy density of sunlight at noon is around 1kW/m2. The efficiency of solar panels is...a lot less than one.