Real road racers. The TT yesteryear and today

**GrayWolf** · 23rd April 2012, 14:52

I know that we have many discussions and arguments here about bike handling, and cornering techniques.
This may have been posted before but I just wanted to demonstrate that the current trend of climbing all over the bike and sticking the knee out is not the 'only way' to ride fast.
Three of these clips are of Mike (the bike) Hailwood, Historically argueably the greatest TT racer of all time, the other contender is Agostini. One also features Phil Read.. another all time great at the TT. The clips of Mike when Older was when he came out of several years retirement from bike racing, and won the Senior TT on the Ducati.. a feat No other rider has ever accomplished. The 'promo' clip shows that he was riding against full blown japanese race bikes on the Duc, Its the rider, not the machine. The last Hialwood clip is considered one of the greatest classic TT races of all time... Hailwood Vs Agostini on MV Augusta's
The other is of the 2010 TT.... please take note of the horrendous 'off' about 90 seconds into the clip.... its a graphic example of why us old farts say that roads are not for 'racing' on as so many riders think they are.

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=r4ecLoo2BXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKPv...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXnu...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUqgs...feature=relmfu

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/ne...newthread&f=33

**Maha** · 23rd April 2012, 16:49

Beautiful...open faced helmets/no knee down for those boys in the early days, just grip and go.

**slofox** · 23rd April 2012, 17:06

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=r4ecLoo2BXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKPv...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXnu...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUqgs...feature=relmfu

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/ne...newthread&f=33

Sooooo...which link is to the 2010 event?

**Oakie** · 23rd April 2012, 18:58

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

the current trend of climbing all over the bike and sticking the knee out is not the 'only way' to ride fast.

How fast was fast though. I mean what speed was he doing compared to the modern-day knee-down acrobats? Seriously, what speeds was he doing ...I have no idea and can't be arsed looking it up.

**gatch** · 23rd April 2012, 19:35

I'd put money on the legends of old being faster, if they had of "climbed all over the bike".

**300weatherby** · 23rd April 2012, 20:01

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

I know that we have many discussions and arguments here about bike handling, and cornering techniques.
This may have been posted before but I just wanted to demonstrate that the current trend of climbing all over the bike and sticking the knee out is not the 'only way' to ride fast.
Three of these clips are of Mike (the bike) Hailwood, Historically argueably the greatest TT racer of all time, the other contender is Agostini. One also features Phil Read.. another all time great at the TT. The clips of Mike when Older was when he came out of several years retirement from bike racing, and won the Senior TT on the Ducati.. a feat No other rider has ever accomplished. The 'promo' clip shows that he was riding against full blown japanese race bikes on the Duc, Its the rider, not the machine. The last Hialwood clip is considered one of the greatest classic TT races of all time... Hailwood Vs Agostini on MV Augusta's
The other is of the 2010 TT.... please take note of the horrendous 'off' about 90 seconds into the clip.... its a graphic example of why us old farts say that roads are not for 'racing' on as so many riders think they are.

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=r4ecLoo2BXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKPv...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXnu...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUqgs...feature=relmfu

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/ne...newthread&f=33

You tellin me that Bruce Ansty is slow and ungainly?, or maybe Cam Donald is, or maybe Guy Martin - Would Rossi solve his Ducati problem by emulating Aggo ( Rossi's very own hero...).

Each generation is doing thing differently to the previous one, it's called evoluotion. Direct comparason can never happen because you can never recreate circumstance. Mike the Bike was the man, but not now, the same will happen 30 yrs from now, the current best will be judged with a different yard stick to now. Would the 74 All Blacks beat the Current All Blacks? they do, after all play the same game.

**GrayWolf** · 23rd April 2012, 20:30

Originally Posted by slofox

Sooooo...which link is to the 2010 event?

apologies Slofox.... didnt get the link correct.. see below. shows a spectacular off, over a drop running beside the road.
about 1.25mins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tewwW2IxUEY

**GrayWolf** · 23rd April 2012, 21:05

Originally Posted by 300weatherby

You tellin me that Bruce Ansty is slow and ungainly?, or maybe Cam Donald is, or maybe Guy Martin - Would Rossi solve his Ducati problem by emulating Aggo ( Rossi's very own hero...).

Each generation is doing thing differently to the previous one, it's called evoluotion. Direct comparason can never happen because you can never recreate circumstance. Mike the Bike was the man, but not now, the same will happen 30 yrs from now, the current best will be judged with a different yard stick to now. Would the 74 All Blacks beat the Current All Blacks? they do, after all play the same game.

Evolution doesnt always mean going forwards, evolution is full of 'dead end' sub species... I agree the game of rugby has changed, so have the bikes compared to those days... so we have better tyres (and wider) better brakes, etc etc....
however regardless of machinery talent is critical. I watched the interview when Rossi went round the circuit behind Aggo,,, he admitted the circuit scared him, "you need very different skills and 'much bravery'".. road circuits are different to race tracks, that's why the TT has killed so many riders over the years.

And a good example of modern Vs old..... The golden era of heavyweight boxing... now which of the modern day specimens
would you put in a ring against, Ali, Fraser, Forman in their prime?? As even Tyson and Ali agreed in an interview.. Ali said "One hit and I'd be asleep".. Tyson's response was " but I'd have to catch him standing still first".
As an aside John Surtees was up until very recently still riding clubman circuit and competitive riding in the 'old style'. I was very privileged to watch Ivan Mauger at the Inaugural World Speedway champs in Invercargill in the late 1990's... he and his great Aussie rival did a few laps,,, and Ivan was only about 2 seconds off the pace of the current world class riders in his 60's.. His Legendary smooth style of riding still cut the mustard.

and the speeds set back then on machines with vastly inferior suspension and brakes?
1978 TT Hailwood 110 mph (Formula One), Read 113, and overall highest speed was pat herron at 114mph... so Mike was within 20mph of the current machinery.
And he won the Senior the next year as well, 1978 was after 10 years of retirement.... So I would put Mike and Ago' as the Ali/Fraser's of the bike world.
Hailwoods 1967 TT lap record was 107mph...1965 honda win was at 105mph. I believe the current fasted lap ever is 131mph.
http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database.aspx

interestingly if you watch the 2011 link in response to slofox's post re incorrect link? There isn't much climbing all over the bike going on.

and heres a 5 minute clip of Steve Plater on a 130mph lap (Ramsey Hairpin to Creg ny Baa in Less than 5 minutes!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnTvfap4fo

**unstuck** · 23rd April 2012, 21:09

Awesome clips, cheers.

**Laava** · 23rd April 2012, 21:12

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

apologies Slofox.... didnt get the link correct.. I'll re look it up. shows a spectacular off, over a drop running beside the road.

This one?..............

**300weatherby** · 23rd April 2012, 21:57

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

Evolution doesnt always mean going forwards, evolution is full of 'dead end' sub species... I agree the game of rugby has changed, so have the bikes compared to those days... so we have better tyres (and wider) better brakes, etc etc....
however regardless of machinery talent is critical. I watched the interview when Rossi went round the circuit behind Aggo,,, he admitted the circuit scared him, "you need very different skills and 'much bravery'".. road circuits are different to race tracks, that's why the TT has killed so many riders over the years.

And a good example of modern Vs old..... The golden era of heavyweight boxing... now which of the modern day specimens
would you put in a ring against, Ali, Fraser, Forman in their prime?? As even Tyson and Ali agreed in an interview.. Ali said "One hit and I'd be asleep".. Tyson's response was " but I'd have to catch him standing still first".
As an aside John Surtees was up until very recently still riding clubman circuit and competitive riding in the 'old style'. I was very privileged to watch Ivan Mauger at the Inaugural World Speedway champs in Invercargill in the late 1990's... he and his great Aussie rival did a few laps,,, and Ivan was only about 2 seconds off the pace of the current world class riders in his 60's.. His Legendary smooth style of riding still cut the mustard.

and the speeds set back then on machines with vastly inferior suspension and brakes?
1978 TT Hailwood 110 mph (Formula One), Read 113, and overall highest speed was pat herron at 114mph... so Mike was within 20mph of the current machinery.
And he won the Senior the next year as well, 1978 was after 10 years of retirement.... So I would put Mike and Ago' as the Ali/Fraser's of the bike world.
Hailwoods 1967 TT lap record was 107mph...1965 honda win was at 105mph. I believe the current fasted lap ever is 131mph.
http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database.aspx

interestingly if you watch the 2011 link in response to slofox's post re incorrect link? There isn't much climbing all over the bike going on.

and heres a 5 minute clip of Steve Plater on a 130mph lap (Ramsey Hairpin to Creg ny Baa in Less than 5 minutes!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnTvfap4fo

I'll agree some guys over do it and you could practically stick a second bike in there, but I couldn't comprehend not moving around the bike to help reduce lean angle and manipulate suspension and or tyre loading front or rear- we all do what we think works for us, right or wrong. Love the vids.

**slofox** · 24th April 2012, 08:16

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

apologies Slofox.... didnt get the link correct.. see below. shows a spectacular off, over a drop running beside the road.
about 1.25mins

Thanks GrayWolf.

**eliot-ness** · 24th April 2012, 09:42

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

As an aside John Surtees was up until very recently still riding clubman circuit and competitive riding in the 'old style'.

I would suggest that comparisons between the 60s and modern styles of riding are impossible. Top speeds in the 60s were limited more by inferior tires and atrocious road surface than power and handling. The huge advances in Japanese bikes, with their huge power output but inferior road holding required a new style of riding in order to be competitive, then, as tires and suspension improved, the difference between winning and and losing became a matter of split seconds per lap, and style is the last thing a rider has to think about

So, a question for you old timers. Who was the first rider to hang off the bike in order win a world championship? You may be surprised.

**manxkiwi** · 24th April 2012, 10:29

[QUOTE=GrayWolf;1130309130]and the speeds set back then on machines with vastly inferior suspension and brakes?
1978 TT Hailwood 110 mph (Formula One), Read 113, and overall highest speed was pat herron at 114mph... so Mike was within 20mph of the current machinery.
And he won the Senior the next year as well, 1978 was after 10 years of retirement.... So I would put Mike and Ago' as the Ali/Fraser's of the bike world.
Hailwoods 1967 TT lap record was 107mph...1965 honda win was at 105mph. I believe the current fasted lap ever is 131mph.
http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database.aspx

The increase in lap speed is exponential though. It's ok to say they were within 20mph 30 years ago. It took 20 years to get from a 100mph lap to a 110mph lap. I'm not knocking anything and believe they're all incredible riders of course. Just saying the difference between 130mph lap and 131mph lap is considerably more than 129mph to 130mph.

Did you mean Pat Hennen (USA) or Tom Herron (IRL)?

BTW: 32 days and counting.......