Real road racers. The TT yesteryear and today

[GrayWolf]

I would suggest that comparisons between the 60s and modern styles of riding are impossible. Top speeds in the 60s were limited more by inferior tires and atrocious road surface than power and handling. The huge advances in Japanese bikes, with their huge power output but inferior road holding required a new style of riding in order to be competitive, then, as tires and suspension improved, the difference between winning and and losing became a matter of split seconds per lap, and style is the last thing a rider has to think about

So, a question for you old timers. Who was the first rider to hang off the bike in order win a world championship? You may be surprised.

I would agree about the evolution of bikes for power etc, as you are probably aware Hailwood's martini Yamaha's were not reliable the year he rode the Duc to win the Formula 1 TT, so sadly we never saw what he might have achieved on them.
What my original intention was/is to demonstrate that the current philosophy of climbing all over the bike is what I would call 'track riding. On a predictable surface with direct vision around the curves. If you watch the 2010/2011 TT laps one thing that is obvious is there is very little movement around the bike by riders in the superbike, Senior, Formula 1 (GP) classes. Again I'l point out Rossi admitted the IoM needs a different skill for riding. it is a 60km track which you cannot remember every little bump, braking points etc untill you've ridden it several times. Besides the fact as is seen on any filmed lap from a bike the road surface constantly changes, the cambers alter, the roads narrow etc, etc,,, this is not the surface that track riders generally ride on.
It would seem at least in the case of the IoM, close to the 'old school' riding seems more effective. Maybe because the bends approach so damn fast you do not have time to climb left and right across the bike IDK. I do know having done a Mad Sunday once on what was considered then a good handling bike (RD350LC tuned) it was very 'intense' to hold 'high speed' :
over the whole 37 mile circuit.

[merv]

Not much point getting your knee down when the surface aint going to receive it too well eh!

So was I right with Saarinen?

[gatch]

I would agree about the evolution of bikes for power etc, as you are probably aware Hailwood's martini Yamaha's were not reliable the year he rode the Duc to win the Formula 1 TT, so sadly we never saw what he might have achieved on them.
What my original intention was/is to demonstrate that the current philosophy of climbing all over the bike is what I would call 'track riding. On a predictable surface with direct vision around the curves. If you watch the 2010/2011 TT laps one thing that is obvious is there is very little movement around the bike by riders in the superbike, Senior, Formula 1 (GP) classes. Again I'l point out Rossi admitted the IoM needs a different skill for riding. it is a 60km track which you cannot remember every little bump, braking points etc untill you've ridden it several times. Besides the fact as is seen on any filmed lap from a bike the road surface constantly changes, the cambers alter, the roads narrow etc, etc,,, this is not the surface that track riders generally ride on.
It would seem at least in the case of the IoM, close to the 'old school' riding seems more effective. Maybe because the bends approach so damn fast you do not have time to climb left and right across the bike IDK. I do know having done a Mad Sunday once on what was considered then a good handling bike (RD350LC tuned) it was very 'intense' to hold 'high speed' :
over the whole 37 mile circuit.

I wonder with the isle of man guys.. They "get off the bike" less, because it means less resistance to the passing air ? As they spend a lot of their time at full throttle. Much more so than a short track ? The benefits of leaning off the bike might be rendered moot by the increased resistance.

Would be interesting to know as a comparison the amount of time (as a percentage) spent at full throttle, on say a motogp bike and a TT racer..

[eliot-ness]

Not much point getting your knee down when the surface aint going to receive it too well eh!

So was I right with Saarinen?

Sorry, much earlier than Saarinen.It was in fact the ultimate stylist, John Surtees on the MV Agusta. The MVs of 1957/58 handled so badly that he reckoned that hanging off the bike was the only way he could get it around the corners. He was heavily involved in the development of a new frame in 1958 and soon went back to the classic, smooth style. A few riders experimented with hanging off the bikes in the early sixties but it was a bit halfhearted and with little success. the Manx Nortons and AJS of that time just weren't designed for it.
I doubt anyone would gain any advantage by hanging off the bike at the IOM. Hailwood proved that, but the IOM, and other true road racing circuits in Ireland, is in a class of its own and no comparison can be made with purpose designed tracks, no matter how long or fast they are.

[Manxman]

Old style vs new style....dunt matter to me. They ALL have kahunas of steel far as I'm concerned. Imagine riding yer nuts off for nearly two hours straight. Not easy in 1960, Not easy in 2012.

[ducatilover]

I wonder with the isle of man guys.. They "get off the bike" less, because it means less resistance to the passing air ? As they spend a lot of their time at full throttle. Much more so than a short track ? The benefits of leaning off the bike might be rendered moot by the increased resistance.

Would be interesting to know as a comparison the amount of time (as a percentage) spent at full throttle, on say a motogp bike and a TT racer..

They're off the bike on every corner that they're pushing the limits of grip usually. If they're not off it, they're going fuck-fast without max lean angles.

[SPman]

The only way to tell who would bequickest is to have the modern riders cane the old bikes and vice versa.........now that would be interesting......I believe Hailwood reckoned the 500/4 Honda was an absolute pig, but he still got around pretty quick on it......

[Grumph]

Surtees admitted shifting his weight inwards on corners to better control the MV while drifting it in the mid 60's....

I don't think riding technique has changed that much - at least since WW2. The really talented guys would still come out top in any era because they ride each bike on it's merits and do what has to be done to get it round corners quickly - often on pure instinct.

The bikes of the 50's and 60's didn't encorage a lot of body movement because that would often set off chassis weaves...believe me frames have come a long way. Even in the 70's tyres were better enough that you could get a Manx flexing badly. Tidy was the only way to feel comfortable.

[Premature Accelerato]

It would be interesting to know how they got the film footage. In the first clip, given the technology of the day, wouldnt the riders view of the track been obscured by an particularly large hand cranked camera. View from the back must have had a pillion on the back, just curious. Would have been an awesome rider to win a GP with a pillion along for the ride.

[tbs]

I've got the TT Closer to the Edge DVD at home. The bonus disk has a segment with Milky Quayle driving a car around the circuit discussing how to ride it. On the tight corners he talks about touching the knee down, and on the tight corner complexes (ie right left right) he refers to climbing back over the bike. In some places it would seem the hang off the bike style is used. The course just doesn't let you spend much time with your knee on the ground.

[Voltaire]

someone should tell Andrew Stroud that Manx Nortons are not for getting your knee down... things must have improved for the 1962 model...
mmmm drum brakes and spoked wheels....a proper motorcycle.

Its more likely the tyres of the day did not allow it.

[gatch]

That is most likely a mcintosh manx. Chromoly tube frame ?

Either way, it is a fast bike. The old domi I race can't touch it.

[Voltaire]

That is most likely a mcintosh manx. Chromoly tube frame ?

Either way, it is a fast bike. The old domi I race can't touch it.

I don't think there are many 1962 bits on a McIntosh Manx...
Maybe I could get Andrew to take my R90 for a thrash around Puke....I'm sure he'd beat my 1.23 time....

[Grumph]

In the early 70's a guy named Colin Robinson raced a Manx in ChCh - he regularly got his knee down on Ruapuna - being well over six feet tall definitely helped...the legs have to go somewhere. Just look at the pic of similarly tall Stroud...
I never managed it on mine - but I did regularly grind away footrests.

I swear Owen Galbraith got his arse down regularly around the same time and later - he rode an Ariel Arrow then various Kawasakis and hung so far off them all you could see from the outside was a leg and a hand on the bars....

[_Shrek_]

How fast was fast though. I mean what speed was he doing compared to the modern-day knee-down acrobats? Seriously, what speeds was he doing ...I have no idea and can't be arsed looking it up.

av speed in one I heard 113mph = 185kph aprox & up to 180mph = 300kph aprox PDQ for the time & era