teenage road deaths

[WINJA]

Just saw on the news tonight that four teenagers lost their lives in a high speed crash in HB this am. As a parent of a teenager and someone who works at a High School I would hate to have to deal with losing anyone I cared about in this way. It is blatantly obvious that the licensing restriction system and the anti speed campaign does not work for our young people- who consider themselves 10 foot tall and bullet proof -all evidence to the contrary! Perhaps we need to increase the age at which our young people can get behind the wheel of these souped up machines, as in Europe or maybe we need to have a power to weight ratio restriction. I don't think it was so much of an issue back in the seventies as teenagers drove ancient sluggish old bangers as in Humber 80's, Ford defects etc - certainly not capable of the speeds that todays kids can attain in their Legacys, WRX's, Evo's etc funded by nearsighted parents in a lot of cases.
I find the whole thing really, really sad and wonder what can be done about it.

YOU CAN DO YOUR BEST TO STOP YOUR KIDS FROM BEING STUPID ON THE ROAD , BUT EVEN THEN IT DONT ALWAYS WORK .
I THINK IN THAT SORT OF ACCIDENT THERE IS USUALLY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN INDIVIDUAL IN THE CAR TO SPEAK UP OR AT LEAST GET OUT.
IF I HAD A KID AND HE GOT OUT OF A CAR BEING DRIVEN BY A MORON ID DRIVE ANYWHERE TO PICK HIM UP

[yungatart]

YOU CAN DO YOUR BEST TO STOP YOUR KIDS FROM BEING STUPID ON THE ROAD , BUT EVEN THEN IT DONT ALWAYS WORK .
I THINK IN THAT SORT OF ACCIDENT THERE IS USUALLY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN INDIVIDUAL IN THE CAR TO SPEAK UP OR AT LEAST GET OUT.
IF I HAD A KID AND HE GOT OUT OF A CAR BEING DRIVEN BY A MORON ID DRIVE ANYWHERE TO PICK HIM UP

Sometimes the driver refuses to listen- as in the accident a couple of years ago also in HB where 2 teenages died when the vehicle driven by their friend at high speed through a red light collided with a truck. Tis better to teach them to not get int he car in the first place surely-kinda hard to get out of a car moving at 130kph

[Ixion]

Thre is nothing new in any of this. 40 years ago teenage boys were EXACTLY the same as they are now.

What has changed is the cars. Not that they are more powerful - most of the fatalities occur in 50kph zones, and at speeds that the old Zephyrs could reach. But in the fact that cars have physically become easy to drive. 40 years ago actually driving the car was a skilled business. Nowdays, with auto transmission, power brakes and steering, modern suspension systems, you just sit there and push on the pedal. It's easy, totally unfrightening, until something goes wrong. Then it goes wrong horribly fast. And often the time they get killed is the first time anythings has ever gone wrong. With the Zephyr we had lots of scares. You don't in modern cars.The Zephyr could do 150kph, but you sure knew you were going fast. But manufacturers won't go back to making Zephyrs and if they did no one would buy them

Capacty restrictions won't work , nor will "no turbo" type rules, because even a stock Corolla can go more than fast enough to kill you.

Nor will license restrictions. Already it takes, I think, about three years to get all the way through. That means , in theory, no-one under 18 on a full. I'm sure Mr Scumdog can tell us how that stacks up to reality. Push it out to 20+?. Why will that be more respected than the present limit? And at 20 people may be married. Are we going to say that a married couple can't travel in the same car ?

And all restrictions will fail because there will be no "buy in" from those they restirct. They will just be seen as dreary olds wanting to stop youff having any fun. With some justification.Even I think that and I'm no youff. How many of those calling for restriction here can say honesty that they NEVER want to drive or ride fast. I am the sites biggest Nana, but I can't say that.So why should we expect young men to believe what we don't ?

We have to accept that young men (yes it's different for girls. Part of the problem. "Why can't you be like a girl? Girls are good, you're not. Boys are worthless" ) will want to go fast, and will have access to cars to do it.

If we genuinely want to stop them being killed so often they only way involves changes that no NZ government is going to agree to.

One is providing boys with NON WIMPY male models. **NOT** the dreary wimps who are usually put forward. But guys that boys will WANT to emulate, and who can honestly say "Yes, it's cool to go fast. I do it, and I'm *REALLY* fast. But it's NOT cool to go fast under these conditions. ". Want to know who I reckon would be the best model for boys, on this site? Mr WINJA. See, I can hear the scream already. You won't accept it. But he would be. He really can go fast, he's not a goody goody two-shoes, and he's sensible enough to tell them when to cool it , and tough enough to clip them over the ear if they don't. But would a single one of you would accept him as a model for your kids ? (No offence meant Mr WINJA, I'm just demonstarting that society talks the talk, but it won't walk the walk )

The other is providing a graduated license scheme that makes SKILLED driving something to brag about. Who are the guys who proverbially DON'T overdo things on the road ? The racers, car or bike. Because they get their speed kicks on the track, and learn just how fast things can go lavender , they are usually very cautious on the road. Introduce a high speed license, and see young men fight to be good drivers. But it won't happen because society will never agree to it.

So, yep, there is no answer to this. Young men ARE going to go on killing themseles, because society , that means YOU, is not willing to face the reality of what being a young guy is about.

Keep trying to turn boys into nice docile girls and they'll keep rebelling . And if speeding recklessly is the only way they can demostrate that they aren't girls, then that's what they'll do.

Want to stop young men dying, oh society ? Change yourself. Don't want to though, do you ?

EDIT: BEfore flame war starts. When I say "you" I don't mean YOU. Hypothetical you. And I'm sure everyone on this site is a first class parent. I am talking in generalities.

[onearmedbandit]

Had my full license in a year. Took my L restriction from 6mths to 3 by driving around with a instructor, did a defensive driving course for my restricted and shortened that from 18mths to 9. Think I was 15 when I got my learners (14yrs ago.)

[scumdog]

As per WINJA above, I told my two boys not to buckle to peer pressure - if somebody is driving like a dick? - tell them to pull over and walk/call me.
Not ALWAYS practicable but the best they would be able to do.

Told them risky activities are o.k. - IF they are in control and it's an 'acceptable' activity. i.e. hunting,sports,controlled driving events etc.

Luckily both seem not to have inherited my 'petrol-head' gene.

[SPORK]

Mr Ixion, unless I'm mistaken, you can have your full by the time you're 16, if you do a CBTA or something orrather course.

6 Months Learners
12 Months Restricted (With course, of course)

In theory, this means that can have my full license sometime around October next year. I got my learners the day after my birthday ('twas on a Sunday)

The common misconception of all teens thinking they are bulletproof is rather frustrating, but to a certain extent I must agree. I like to think of my friends and I being of the higher mental calibre, so I don't think I'd fall under the general umbrella of thinking I'm invincable. (I'm certain I just spelled that wrong).

To prove my point, after dropping a friend home with Mum around 11:30pm, she asked me if I wanted to drive home. I declined, as I didn't think I was at my peak mental sharpness. I'd like to think that other people my age in similar situations would do the same thing, but I doubt it. Being raised in a Fiddy Cent enviornment at school is infuriating enough, but having those dicks on the road is just asking for an assrape.

I just woke up, so I doubt that makes much sense. Au Revoir!

[scumdog]

hmmmm again why do idiot like this own cars
my couson owns a
subaru wrx around 300hp and 1 1/3 tonnes
he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph
just making the point that its not the speeders or the younger drivers
its the unexperienced drivers that have NOT got proper driveing tecniqes

Ps i cant speel for shit

Rad the post above yours.

I assume your cousin wears a big sign saying "I AM TRAVELLING AT OVER 140kph" above his WRX so that other road users are aware he is doing those speeds and not just 100kph?

Techniqur-schmechnique, if he keeps those speeds up he'll come unstuck eventually - and it will be most unpleasant for all concerned.

[Ixion]

Mr Ixion, unless I'm mistaken, you can have your full by the time you're 16, if you do a CBTA or something orrather course.

6 Months Learners
12 Months Restricted (With course, of course)

In theory, this means that can have my full license sometime around October next year. I got my learners the day after my birthday ('twas on a Sunday)

The common misconception of all teens thinking they are bulletproof is rather frustrating, but to a certain extent I must agree. I like to think of my friends and I being of the higher mental calibre, so I don't think I'd fall under the general umbrella of thinking I'm invincable. (I'm certain I just spelled that wrong).

To prove my point, after dropping a friend home with Mum around 11:30pm, she asked me if I wanted to drive home. I declined, as I didn't think I was at my peak mental sharpness. I'd like to think that other people my age in similar situations would do the same thing, but I doubt it. Being raised in a Fiddy Cent enviornment at school is infuriating enough, but having those dicks on the road is just asking for an assrape.

I just woke up, so I doubt that makes much sense. Au Revoir!

To be sure. We must remember that the majority of young men, like you , are NOT going to be doing things that will wrap them round a telephone pole. They WILL be sensible (well, relatively anyway), and won't end up as a statistic.

But we are by definition here, talking about those who DON'T fit into that group.

Which is my point. It is no good introducing new rules or restrictions , or initiatives, that will only be effective for people like you. You don't need them.

Anything that is going to stop young men getting killed has to work FOR THE YOUNG MEN AT RISK OF BEING KILLED. And we have to meet them on THEIR territory.

Yes, I did realise that defensive driving course can reduce the time to get a full. But if we are going to allow such concessions, then why talk of increasing the period/age ? Why not just remove the concession. Once again, defensive driving courses are no doubt excellent for those who don't need them. But those that do need them, may attend, the concession, but it won't change their behaviour one iota.

Seems silly to say "Young people get license at too young an age. Lets put up the age , but also have a concession so they can still get them at a young age"

[yungatart]

There is an outfit called "prodrive" (I think) that puts kids behind the wheel of a car and teaches them how to drive out of trouble. They use a "dolly type thing"It is all done in a controlled situation. Making something like that compulsory for all learner drivers would be a great start. It would target both those that need it and those that don't but would give them all skills to deal with the kind of trouble they could meet on the road.

[MSTRS:Me]

I also think that there is a thing called (self)discipline missing these days http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=14879

[WINJA]

hmmmm again why do idiot like this own cars
my couson owns a
subaru wrx around 300hp and 1 1/3 tonnes
he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph
just making the point that its not the speeders or the younger drivers
its the unexperienced drivers that have NOT got proper driveing tecniqes

Ps i cant speel for shit

I KNOW A CHINESE STUDENT WHO GOT THE HOTTEST WRX AND THEN SPENT THOUSANDS OF HIS DADS DOLLARS ON EVERY PERFORMANCE PART HES 20 YO AND SPED EVERY WHERE THE COPS TOOK HIS LICENCE GOOD THING TOO HE WAS
A SHIT DRIVER , GOT CAUGHT AGAIN CAUSE THEY KNOW THE CAR , SO HE GIVES THE CAR TO HIS UNLICENCED 18YO CHINESE STUDENT GF AND BOUGHT AN EVEN MORE POWERFULL SKYLINE WITH EVERY THING ON IT BIG TURBO ETC AND CONTINUED TO DRIVE THAT AROUND CRASHING AT LEAST MONTHLY . WHAT A CUNT , THEN HE BACKS INTO EVERYONES CAR ONE DAY IN A RUSH TO LEAVE WHICH HE DENIED AND DENIED TILL I PRINTED OFF THE SECURITY SYSTEM AND SHOWED HIM , THE COPS WERENT INTERESTED ,I THINK THEY WERE WAITING FOR HIM AND HIS GF TO KILL A NEW ZEALANDER EACH FIRST THEN MAKE A DONATION TO A KINDY AND THEN SEND THEM HOME

[mstriumph]

this is so sensible that it's absolutely GUARANTEED it will never happen ....... damn!

..............................

The other is providing a graduated license scheme that makes SKILLED driving something to brag about. ....................... Introduce a high speed license, and see young men fight to be good drivers. But it won't happen because society will never agree to it.

.........

[Jeremy]

Thre is nothing new in any of this. 40 years ago teenage boys were EXACTLY the same as they are now.

What has changed is the cars. Not that they are more powerful - most of the fatalities occur in 50kph zones, and at speeds that the old Zephyrs could reach. But in the fact that cars have physically become easy to drive. 40 years ago actually driving the car was a skilled business. Nowdays, with auto transmission, power brakes and steering, modern suspension systems, you just sit there and push on the pedal. It's easy, totally unfrightening, until something goes wrong. Then it goes wrong horribly fast. And often the time they get killed is the first time anythings has ever gone wrong. With the Zephyr we had lots of scares. You don't in modern cars.The Zephyr could do 150kph, but you sure knew you were going fast. But manufacturers won't go back to making Zephyrs and if they did no one would buy them

Capacty restrictions won't work , nor will "no turbo" type rules, because even a stock Corolla can go more than fast enough to kill you.

Nor will license restrictions. Already it takes, I think, about three years to get all the way through. That means , in theory, no-one under 18 on a full. I'm sure Mr Scumdog can tell us how that stacks up to reality. Push it out to 20+?. Why will that be more respected than the present limit? And at 20 people may be married. Are we going to say that a married couple can't travel in the same car ?

And all restrictions will fail because there will be no "buy in" from those they restirct. They will just be seen as dreary olds wanting to stop youff having any fun. With some justification.Even I think that and I'm no youff. How many of those calling for restriction here can say honesty that they NEVER want to drive or ride fast. I am the sites biggest Nana, but I can't say that.So why should we expect young men to believe what we don't ?

We have to accept that young men (yes it's different for girls. Part of the problem. "Why can't you be like a girl? Girls are good, you're not. Boys are worthless" ) will want to go fast, and will have access to cars to do it.

If we genuinely want to stop them being killed so often they only way involves changes that no NZ government is going to agree to.

One is providing boys with NON WIMPY male models. **NOT** the dreary wimps who are usually put forward. But guys that boys will WANT to emulate, and who can honestly say "Yes, it's cool to go fast. I do it, and I'm *REALLY* fast. But it's NOT cool to go fast under these conditions. ". Want to know who I reckon would be the best model for boys, on this site? Mr WINJA. See, I can hear the scream already. You won't accept it. But he would be. He really can go fast, he's not a goody goody two-shoes, and he's sensible enough to tell them when to cool it , and tough enough to clip them over the ear if they don't. But would a single one of you would accept him as a model for your kids ? (No offence meant Mr WINJA, I'm just demonstarting that society talks the talk, but it won't walk the walk )

The other is providing a graduated license scheme that makes SKILLED driving something to brag about. Who are the guys who proverbially DON'T overdo things on the road ? The racers, car or bike. Because they get their speed kicks on the track, and learn just how fast things can go lavender , they are usually very cautious on the road. Introduce a high speed license, and see young men fight to be good drivers. But it won't happen because society will never agree to it.

So, yep, there is no answer to this. Young men ARE going to go on killing themseles, because society , that means YOU, is not willing to face the reality of what being a young guy is about.

Keep trying to turn boys into nice docile girls and they'll keep rebelling . And if speeding recklessly is the only way they can demostrate that they aren't girls, then that's what they'll do.

Want to stop young men dying, oh society ? Change yourself. Don't want to though, do you ?

EDIT: BEfore flame war starts. When I say "you" I don't mean YOU. Hypothetical you. And I'm sure everyone on this site is a first class parent. I am talking in generalities.

"nice docile girls" ha. And another ha for good measure. The worst drivers I've ever met are female, incapable of controlling the car at low speeds often with cars they did not pay for themselves.

If someone has worked hard for something then you'll do whatever it takes to keep it. Most of the "boy racers" I've met are absolutely petrified that someone will hit their car as they'd cost a fortune to replace.

I'm also fairly sure that there hasn't been a real increase in the number of youth driving casulties. As the population increases of course there's going to be more deaths.

The other group of drivers I don't trust are the middle aged ones driving around in their BMWs. They don't care if they hit someone, they can afford to replace their cars with ease. Even speeding tickets don't affect them as they can afford to take a taxi to work if they lose their license. Also it's been a long time since they had to pass a driving test. The people I see following the road rules to the letter tend to be young.

By the way the quickest test I can think of that shows that there really isn't a problem with how young people can drive is really this thread. People are talking because 4 young people died due to excessive speed. There wouldn't even be a thread if it was 4 people in their 30s as that is so common it happens every week.

[MSTRS:Me]

"nice docile girls" ha. And another ha for good measure. The worst drivers I've ever met are female, incapable of controlling the car at low speeds often with cars they did not pay for themselves.

If someone has worked hard for something then you'll do whatever it takes to keep it. Most of the "boy racers" I've met are absolutely petrified that someone will hit their car as they'd cost a fortune to replace.

I'm also fairly sure that there hasn't been a real increase in the number of youth driving casulties. As the population increases of course there's going to be more deaths.

The other group of drivers I don't trust are the middle aged ones driving around in their BMWs. They don't care if they hit someone, they can afford to replace their cars with ease. Even speeding tickets don't affect them as they can afford to take a taxi to work if they lose their license. Also it's been a long time since they had to pass a driving test. The people I see following the road rules to the letter tend to be young.

By the way the quickest test I can think of that shows that there really isn't a problem with how young people can drive is really this thread. People are talking because 4 young people died due to excessive speed. There wouldn't even be a thread if it was 4 people in their 30s as that is so common it happens every week.

What a load of selfserving garbage. 90 15-24yo this year so far. As a percentage, this has to be the worst year ever for young people killing themselves and others on our roads.

[mstriumph]

NICE am i :sneaky2: ?? ...... DOCILE am i ???

..............................Keep trying to turn boys into nice docile girls and they'll keep rebelling . And if speeding recklessly is the only way they can demostrate that they aren't girls, then that's what they'll do..