New Zealand army - no weapons no ammo.

[TwoSeven]

TwoSeven, I can't say that I agree much at all with your comments.
First of all.... You say NZ has about 500 combat ready troops. Well, The Airforce alone has 500 Toets qualified and ready personnel. I imagine the navy would have a few less and the army, even more.

And exactly how many of them have been trained as infantry and can be deployed in the field

The Airforce is not infact a joke. The airforce is a very heavily involved transportation service, providing essential NZ maritime surveillence, search & rescue, relief aid and tri-service air movements.

And I believe that this is called logistics. Until they put the MX-20 on the P3 orion I dont think they even have night vision at the moment.

An air force is precisely that - a force in the air. Not a military version of civvy services which is what it currently is. Thats why I said it would be better off as a Navy unit, because thats where it has close fitment.

The New Zealand Defence Force is purposefully structured at present. It has been moulded around the Labour Partys plans to provide a service to assist our neighbouring allies should the need arise.

SAS excluded - exactly how can it help. Digging latrines, building walls and lugging everyone elses luggage ?

If there was a specialist army engineers core (or as I see it Navy marines engineers core), then yes, it would be effective. But at the moment they are trying to use common infantry which are no better than armed police.

Primarily a Political agenda.
Unfortunately, The Australian Govt strongly disagree with our structure because we are now hiding behind Australians rather than pulling our own weight right alongside as in previous ANZAC tradition. Hence the rapid decline in the relationships between Australia and NZ, and also US and NZ.
However, we are gaining popularity with Asian countries such as China as we are now aligning more and more stronger with the third world countries.
For Political reasons, It would be very unwise to merge any of the tri service forces as it would appear that we had created a police force as such, (eg Coastguard Service) as opposed to providing a Combat force ready to support our allie countries.

I agree. I think what the poms have done is a good idea and reorganised on the battlegroup. NZ could field at least two or maybe even 3 marine based battlegroups with full equipment - it has the capability and experience to do it, but the current structure is not effective.

I feel that some higher uppers in the armed forces basically are old and outmoded and are just trying to keep their jobs til pension day. I also think there is inter-service politics which really has to go. I know NZ is making a start on it with the recent purchase of the Joint Command and Control System. But i'd like to see that put into action with a single logistics channel over a united Navy, Navy air force and Navy marine force - thats fully co-ordinated and cohesive.


New Zealands LDP (long range development plan) states that it will have a fully motorised infantry (its to be two battalions). The airforce will be getting the new NH90 helo's.

Info Here

[Ixion]

well its bloody similar to the ones I have paraded with, which are the same as the senior officers ones, and we copy most shit off the RN.

I mean wtf would I know, its not like its part of my job to carry one of these around while driving a squad around a parade ground.

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were Army. should have checked your profile.

Yeah, RNZN cutlery will be pretty similar (originally the same as ) RN. ardly surprising, really.

[TwoSeven]

OK the Army now has LAVs. Portaloos would be more use. They can't be easily deployed overseas and can't take much more than small-arms fire. Upgrading the M113 fleet would have made more sense. And I understand there are insufficient crew members for the available LAVs -- one-stripe corporals as vehicle commanders?

I'm swings and roundabouts about whether I like the LAVs or not.


As mobile transport they are pretty good. So getting troops up to a combat situation, with logistics, equipment, comms, medical. Thats ok.

Whether tracked or wheeled was the way to go i'm not sure. I think at the end of the day you have to go wheeled. Things like the LS-Warrior I think are more combat focused which is not a role NZ wants. So fair enough on that.

The lav III they use here I think is the APC equiv (and is end of lifecycle - being replaced with a new design). They are amphibious and can be carried in a C-130 - but not in short takeoffs. They are certainly not designated as combat vehicles. I'd put them in the transport area.

[anhrefn]

The American game is cheaper as its simpler, you just shoot EVERYONE.

Hmmmm sounds like the American military more than a game?!?
"Hey Bill did yah see those tanks I got today?"
"Yeah Bob, didnt those strippy flags with the stars on them make real good bullseyes?"

[Wonko]

Wolf,at a guess your dad would have been in the army in the 50's - 60's(going by your dob). Some things have changed in the army since then, some haven't. There are no longer any bit's in the rifle to lossen off for a better sound, and if anyone caught you slamming the stock into the ground you'd be running around yelling "I love my rifle" for ten mins(if your lucky). Yanks still do all that spinning and tossing bullshit. I don't see why they do it, it's never looked like it could help to kill the enemy to me. One of the major difference between civie and army is that the army have a greater control over when and where you get both blank and live rounds. You are issued with x number of rounds just prior to moving onto the rane, and are taken through exercises to use up all of those rounds. You are then checked by the range staff to make sure you have no rounds on you when you leave the range. It is a millitary offence to have live ammunition in your possesion when you are not meant to have it. The higher up the chain you are, the bigger the punishment. Also every year you have to be tested again to make sure that you are safe to use the weapons.

[scumdog]

Hmmm, not thinking 'cos of too much Famous Grouse ( except how to inflict m'self on Dangerous) but our training involves 9mm loads with 'lipstick' plastic projectiles.

Shit do they hurt - BUT you sure learn what NOT to do!!

[scumdog]

Wolf,at a guess your dad would have been in the army in the 50's - 60's(going by your dob). Some things have changed in the army since then, some haven't. There are no longer any bit's in the rifle to lossen off for a better sound, and if anyone caught you slamming the stock into the ground you'd be running around yelling "I love my rifle" for ten mins(if your lucky). Yanks still do all that spinning and tossing bullshit. I don't see why they do it, it's never looked like it could help to kill the enemy to me. One of the major difference between civie and army is that the army have a greater control over when and where you get both blank and live rounds. You are issued with x number of rounds just prior to moving onto the rane, and are taken through exercises to use up all of those rounds. You are then checked by the range staff to make sure you have no rounds on you when you leave the range. It is a millitary offence to have live ammunition in your possesion when you are not meant to have it. The higher up the chain you are, the bigger the punishment. Also every year you have to be tested again to make sure that you are safe to use the weapons.

My old man said they use to leave the mag in their MK3 303 a bit 'proud' so that when they did a 'present-arms' they would make a hell of a crash when they slapped the mag and pushed it home.

[rfc85]

some interesting veiws on the defence forces of NZ,some amuse,some don't but we all have a right to say that we think as its a "free"country and has been kept that way by the actions of the Army Navy and Air Force in various wars-and they did a pretty good job by all accounts.
i was in the army in the 70s-80s and we did have pretty old and buggered gear,we paraded with smg's these were WWII shit. any upgrade of the services to provide a better level of training and equipment is OK in my book.
i reckon if we were invaded on a friday night NZ was stuffed as most of the SNCOs Corpies and baggies were pretty well pissed in the various mess's and bars.
you have my vote to bring back CMT might just assist the wayward youth of today to gain some repect and confidence in themselves, it sure as shit helped me and a lot of other i knew to make a go of it in life.

[Sniper]

Christ, what next???? How the hell can you train and be expected to perform in the feild when you are pretending to blow the other guy away.

1st rule of combat: If the enemy is in range, so are you!!!!

Too many people will fold when they realise that in the real life, others are trying to kill you too!!!

[Sniper]

TwoSeven, I can't say that I agree much at all with your comments.
First of all.... You say NZ has about 500 combat ready troops. Well, The Airforce alone has 500 Toets qualified and ready personnel. I imagine the navy would have a few less and the army, even more.
The Airforce is not infact a joke. The airforce is a very heavily involved transportation service, providing essential NZ maritime surveillence, search & rescue, relief aid and tri-service air movements.
The New Zealand Defence Force is purposefully structured at present. It has been moulded around the Labour Partys plans to provide a service to assist our neighbouring allies should the need arise. Primarily a Political agenda.
Unfortunately, The Australian Govt strongly disagree with our structure because we are now hiding behind Australians rather than pulling our own weight right alongside as in previous ANZAC tradition. Hence the rapid decline in the relationships between Australia and NZ, and also US and NZ.
However, we are gaining popularity with Asian countries such as China as we are now aligning more and more stronger with the third world countries.
For Political reasons, It would be very unwise to merge any of the tri service forces as it would appear that we had created a police force as such, (eg Coastguard Service) as opposed to providing a Combat force ready to support our allie countries.

Are you trying to say that out of the 37000 New Zealand soldiers, the 7000+ infantary, only 500 of them are ready to fight??? So you are inplying the 500 SAS soldiers are the only men we have ready to fight?? I strongly disagree with you there Dafe.

Also if you can tell me what Toets stands for I might forget that you used it in the wrong way in a sentance that means bugger all. The bloody Labour Govt is trying to weed out the army, we are used for peace keeping Ops and then get pulled out when its too dangerous? WTF???? Thats why we are trained for this in the first place.

Bloody laser guns. I could do more harm throwing it

[Wolf]

Wolf,at a guess your dad would have been in the army in the 50's - 60's(going by your dob). Some things have changed in the army since then, some haven't. There are no longer any bit's in the rifle to lossen off for a better sound, and if anyone caught you slamming the stock into the ground you'd be running around yelling "I love my rifle" for ten mins(if your lucky). Yanks still do all that spinning and tossing bullshit. I don't see why they do it, it's never looked like it could help to kill the enemy to me.

I do know that the Brits still do the whole rifle drill thing - modified because they're doing it with Steyr-AUGs so they can't actually ground the rifle's butt (look kinda silly all these soldier's holding on to the very tip of the barrel and leaving over to the side to get the buttplate to touch the ground.) and I know of a Cadet Unit here in NZ that practises Rifle Drill with wooden dummy SMLEs.

If the NZ Army has removed it, well and good - it's pointless, does not help in learning how to kill the enemy, and teaches sloppy weapon handling - we'll leave that to the yanks to better explain their fantastic capacity for "own goals".

I was brought up around firearms all my life and had "safe handling" drilled into me since before I was allowed to even touch a firearm - there was always at least a .22 and a "sporterised" SMLE in the house at any given time. Dad and my uncles brought home their share of deer and goat in their time. They also went crayfishing, so between venison and crayfish, I dined better as a kid than I can afford to now!

When I got my firearms licence I was young enough to require mum's permission - the firearms officer at the police station was very nice to me after getting off the phone with my mum so I suspect she gave him the "if he doesn't enter the house with the rifle in one hand and the bolt in the other and ammo in his pocket, I'll punch him back out the door" speech.

As to when dad was in the Army, in addition to performing rifle drills with SMLEs, their SMG training was with Stens, I believe...

[TwoSeven]

Are you trying to say that out of the 37000 New Zealand soldiers, the 7000+ infantary, only 500 of them are ready to fight??? So you are inplying the 500 SAS soldiers are the only men we have ready to fight?? I strongly disagree with you there Dafe.

That was actually my commnet. NZ has/is to have two battalions at 600 troops per battalion. When you include those overseas on other duties, those buggering around and the like, you end up with roughly half the force actually capable of doing anything.

Even then I suspect it would take a month or two to go to a state of readyness to be able to ship them anywhere (based on previous events).

[Sniper]

That was actually my commnet. NZ has/is to have two battalions at 600 troops per battalion. When you include those overseas on other duties, those buggering around and the like, you end up with roughly half the force actually capable of doing anything.

Even then I suspect it would take a month or two to go to a state of readyness to be able to ship them anywhere (based on previous events).

I see where you are coming from

[TwoSeven]

Drilling with equipment is a way to get familiarity with it. Think of it like riding a motorcycle lots before entering your first race. In the old days the weapons were fookn heavy, so rifle drill was created so that troops became fit enough to use them.

Marching up and down singing songs might sound like a pretty useless activity but its a pretty good technique for teaching people to work together as a team. There is a lot of psychological stuff that happens when you do this to people and without it, you'd never get efficient team work.

In the military, individuals dont live long. But its a mistake to think that individualism removes creativity. In the british army, promotion is based on exactly the same skills you use in business. You need to show personal skills, leadership skills (effectiveness and efficiency) as well as technical ability. In the US army (from my observance), personal skills are dumbed down because their army is way more larger and its not possible to teach everyone to a high degree with attention to detail. The US army also as a core force that would be trained to the same level as in the UK.

I spent a lot of time when I am working teaching people how to be team players (in the software industry) and I would say most people are not. Its even harder when working with people under the 25 year old bracket because they simply havn't developed the mental capability yet (you have to use different techniques). Its pretty hard to teach someone situational, lateral and tertiary consequences when they barely have the social skills to wipe their own butts

In israel, all soldiers carry their weapon when off duty - so its not a universal convention that ammo isnt carried. They have two clips of live ammo taped to the side of their weapon (its not loaded, but can be) - the mags are usually 1 round short (US weapons).

[SARGE]

On a semi related topic..

Anyone else in favour of bringing back compulsory national service? For the uninformed thats requiring every man and woman to serve a a period of time in the armed forces, generally 1-2 years during the 18-26 age range.

PS: Wolf is a hippy and would abolished the armfed forces and have us all singing Kumbaya when Indonesia invades

hell.. i'd be there .. even though im a 40-something US Marine Vet.. i'd still sign up.. just send me someplace i can work off the stress with some rounds fired in anger..