Palm readings?

[placidfemme]

*is confused now*

[mstriumph]

..... join the club! :unsure:

*is confused now*

[Wolf]

huh... good point... I never really thought of that...

Ok I'm looking at this from a Christian point of veiw... I just assumed that everyone went to the bossum of Abraham... I didn't realise that only christians went there...

I can't really imagine all the Buddhists, Shinto, Asatruar, Celtic Pagans (such as myself), Hindis, Sikhs, atheists etc all turning up there. It would make more sense to me that Christians, "good" or "bad" would turn up there for later processing.

But lets say that only christians went there... then I would assume that those who weren't christians (or the right type of christian... whichever type that would be) would just be dead... or in some other place... then that might make it possible for those who are dead... and not at the bossum of Abraham... could possibly wonder the earth... in which case that would be rather upsetting to the living family members looking for answers (through people who talk to the dead) because that would mean that if someone spoke to your dead family member or friend... then you friend/family member is actually going to hell... is that how it would work?

That depends on how you interpret the Bible and whether you view Hell as a place of eternal punishment or merely eternal death (i.e. not being ressurrected and taken to Heaven), in either case, surely that would only apply to those who purport to be Christian but fall short - those would either be permanently dead and never going to be ressurrected or in the Bosom of Abraham waiting for Judgement Day. Those who have not made a covenant with Christ/Jehovah/YHVH would presumeably have different "arrangements"...

So where do the people (spirits) go if not to the bossum of Abraham?

I believe (and as this is a belief I am not saying this is how it really is or that other people's beliefs are wrong) that they go wherever their particular belief says they'll go. That would mean the spirit of someone who was an atheist should dissipate into nothingness as that is what they believe - otherwise they'd find themselves in "the afterlife" feeling like a "right bunch of charlies" (thank you Rowan Atkinson), it would mean that the adherents of other faiths would go to whatever afterlife they believed in (Tir n'an Og, Land of the Ever Young, for me).

Would some become "ghosts" tied to a place on this Earth but no longer of it? Possibly. Not sure of why, wouldn't be too keen to find out. If so, would they then be "lost" unable to find a way to a suitable "otherworld", who knows. Maybe not. Maybe they're just there until they realise they're dead and then move on (popular notion in ghost stories is that the deceased doesn't realise they've died and doesn't move on when they should.)

I don't think that many people on this planet would have a genuine ability to talk to or receive messages from deceased people (if anyone does at all) - certainly not was many as claim to have that ability.

[Wolf]

Shouldn't this conversation be being had on the Scottish thread?

Nope, this is reasoned, calm and intelligent discourse (except for my bits), not "ravings"

[placidfemme]

That depends on how you interpret the Bible and whether you view Hell as a place of eternal punishment or merely eternal death (i.e. not being ressurrected and taken to Heaven), in either case, surely that would only apply to those who purport to be Christian but fall short - those would either be permanently dead and never going to be ressurrected or in the Bosom of Abraham waiting for Judgement Day. Those who have not made a covenant with Christ/Jehovah/YHVH would presumeably have different "arrangements"...

Hmmm.. well in that sense I think the bible has no grey area on the subject... you either go to heaven or hell... (where you wait in the meantime we havn't figured out as of yet lol). Also in the bible it describes hell as a place with lots of gnashing of teeth and pain and stuff (not sure of the exact wording)... so in that sense I don't think hell is just a nothingness... where you just cease to exist... and if that is the case... then hell doesn't seem so bad... if your dead your not of this world anyway so you won't miss it... you won't even know your dead... so it wouldn't matter... so for God to have that "fear factor" hell has to be a bad place... not just a nothingness

I believe (and as this is a belief I am not saying this is how it really is or that other people's beliefs are wrong) that they go wherever their particular belief says they'll go. That would mean the spirit of someone who was an atheist should dissipate into nothingness as that is what they believe - otherwise they'd find themselves in "the afterlife" feeling like a "right bunch of charlies" (thank you Rowan Atkinson), it would mean that the adherents of other faiths would go to whatever afterlife they believed in (Tir n'an Og, Land of the Ever Young, for me).

Yeah... well this is where the confusion comes in... as you said it would really depend on each persons personal beliefs. So for you... you are going to "Tir n'an Og, Land of the Ever Young" (which I've never heard of before so thats interesting ) From a Christian point of veiw (not nesseccerily (sp) something I agree with)... christians = heaven ..... all other religions = hell

But I agree with you... I don't think that anyone can talk with the dead either... the so called "ghosts and stuff" as mentioned earlier... in my opinion are demons (not as bad as it sounds) or spirits (where from I dunno) but I don't think they are the actual people they look like... just like an impersonator (sp)

I think the way this topic is going its going to get a lot more complicated... we've gone from a christian point of view to a number of different religions and beliefs which opens up a lot more options to choose from as far as answers go...

[zadok]

I cannot recall the exact scriptures, but according to some interpretations of the the Bible, when you die, you die. You go to the grave. At Judgement Day, God resurrects the Faithful and they ascend to Heaven along with those Faithful living on Earth at the time. The non-believers are not resurrected but remain dead - "The wages of sin is death"

Goes something like this: Revelation 20: 12-15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God......And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them...."

[Hitcher]

Nope, this is reasoned, calm and intelligent discourse (except for my bits), not "ravings"

The Scottish Thread has its moments too...

[Ixion]

.. From a Christian point of veiw (not nesseccerily (sp) something I agree with)... christians = heaven ..... all other religions = hell

..

Not necessarily.There is a doctine called, I think , Baptism of the Holy Ghost ("of " not "with") . This , coupled with another doctrine, the Treasury of Merit, argues that Christ's Grace is so great that it serves to save all men who do not reject His grace. Since the "heathens" before His coming had had no chance to accept or reject Him, they were not condemned. There was an enormous amount of discussion about this in the Middle Ages, and even now the Church of Rome goes quite deeply into it.

[placidfemme]

Not necessarily.There is a doctine called, I think , Baptism of the Holy Ghost ("of " not "with") . This , coupled with another doctrine, the Treasury of Merit, argues that Christ's Grace is so great that it serves to save all men who do not reject His grace. Since the "heathens" before His coming had had no chance to accept or reject Him, they were not condemned. There was an enormous amount of discussion about this in the Middle Ages, and even now the Church of Rome goes quite deeply into it.

Just so I understand what your saying.... by that do you mean if you have not denounced God/Jesus then you can still go to heaven? Even if you don't worship him or do anything christian-like?

[zadok]

For those interested in Ixion's comment go to 'religious ravings' for an explanation. Give me a few minutes to get my thoughts together and fingers tapping.

[Zed]

I believe that Palm reading is in the same boat as Tarrot Cards, Ouija Board, channeling, black magic, meditation, etc, etc...where a person free-willingly invites another 'spirit' to possess them enabling them to have supernatural power and knowledge, albiet temporarily. I say don't mess with it Placid, you would be dabbling in the dangerous unknown!

Btw, you can believe what you want to believe about death, but if you basis it on the Bible then according to 2 Cori 5:8 "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The Christian in the NT is said to be "with the Lord" as soon as his/her body dies. The OT was different however, because the OT saints went to a place of rest called 'Abraham's bosom' in Luke 16:22, and they remained there until Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary and went down there to retrieve them and take them up to Heaven where they are now. Read Matt 12:40; Eph 4:7-10; Matt 27:51-53. The teaching of Purgatory or a place the soul goes after death which is *in between* Heaven and Hell, is not Biblical and not believed by the 'Christian' Churches.

[zadok]

Right on ZED

[placidfemme]

Anyway...

Just found out that another of our Telemarketers (her name is Rav) reads palms...

The way she reads them is based on her Indian religion (not sure which one) so I thought I'd get her to read my palms and then I'll get Grace (the Asian lady) to read my palms and compare the two readings...

So anyway... Rav told me... (take into consideration that Rav knows me well... she's meet Sam and we've been working together for about 2 years)

~That I'm not good at saving money (true)
~That if I ever decide to start my own business I will not succeed (sp)
~But I will succeed if I continue to work for other people
~That I will not have any big career changes throughout my life (as in staying in office work until I retire)
~She also said I will have a daughter first, then a son... or perhaps twins, but the girl will be first (given that she knows twins run in my family)
~She also said all my relationships past and future will be "love" relationships (take into consideration that she is an Indian, and her marraige was an arranged marraige... just so you know what she means by that... but again thats a given because I'm not Indian so no-one can arrainge a marraige for me)
~She senses that I make all the decisions in the relationship (true... but then again she does know Sam and I)
~She said that no matter what happens in the future I will always have a support system, be it family or friends (well thats a given unless I become a P addict and everyone disowns me)
~She said that I will (or have) recieve property from a family member.. (which isn't true and I don't see it being true... as the family I have here in NZ don't own homes)

She didn't tell me anything about when I might die or how. She didn't say I'd be rich... but she didn't say I would be poor either...

She said a bunch of other things which were all true, but could be brought down to the fact that she knows me. She didn't tell me anything I didn't know already really, but she was spot on most of the time. I didn't volunteer any information (I told her when she started that I was going to keep quiet and listen and then at the end tell her if she was right or not).

Now I'll just wait for Grace to come to work and get her to read my palms and see what she has to say... which should be interesting because Grace doesn't know about my sexuality (maybe theres a man in my future LOL)

Ok well Grace just read my palms...

And she was a lot less descriptive and accurate than Rav...

She said:

~That my career is good (no details or anything just that my career is good)
~She said both my hands are the same (yep 4 fingers and a thumb on each)
~She said I had a bad childhood with hardships (I don't agree with that, I had the best mother in the world and every family has hardships but that didn't stop us from being happy)
~She didn't peg my sexuality right away... went on some rant about my partner and refered to my partner as a "him" and "he" for about 2 minutes... then paused and asked me directly if I was gay... so of course I said yes..
~She said in the future I will fall in love with a man (had to see that one comig)
~she said I need to consider a career change (different to what Rav said and contradictory to what she said earlier)
~She said I will live until I'm old
~She also said I only have one serious injury in my future... more than likely from a car accident (better than a motorcycle accident)
~She said that the "man" I fall in love with will be rich (any rich men on here? I might love you )
~She said I would love only one person 100% but I won't have them (contradicts what she said about my rich husband)
~She also said I will not be rich (contradiction from my rich hubby again)

weird

[placidfemme]

I believe that Palm reading is in the same boat as Tarrot Cards, Ouija Board, channeling, black magic, meditation, etc, etc...where a person free-willingly invites another 'spirit' to possess them enabling them to have supernatural power and knowledge, albiet temporarily. I say don't mess with it Placid, you would be dabbling in the dangerous unknown!

Btw, you can believe what you want to believe about death, but if you basis it on the Bible then according to 2 Cori 5:8 "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The Christian in the NT is said to be "with the Lord" as soon as his/her body dies. The OT was different however, because the OT saints went to a place of rest called 'Abraham's bosom' in Luke 16:22, and they remained there until Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary and went down there to retrieve them and take them up to Heaven where they are now. Read Matt 12:40; Eph 4:7-10; Matt 27:51-53. The teaching of Purgatory or a place the soul goes after death which is *in between* Heaven and Hell, is not Biblical and not believed by the 'Christian' Churches.

Thank you Zed

*sorry already did the palm readings... both were rubbish*

So just to get this right...

In the OT when you died you went to the bosum of Abraham... then in after Jesus died and lived again he collected the dead... and from then onwards the dead go straight to heaven or hell?

So when people say "such and such are watching you from heaven" it could possibly be true?

[Wolf]

...according to 2 Cori 5:8 "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The Christian in the NT is said to be "with the Lord" as soon as his/her body dies. The OT was different however, because the OT saints went to a place of rest called 'Abraham's bosom' in Luke 16:22, and they remained there until Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary and went down there to retrieve them and take them up to Heaven where they are now. Read Matt 12:40; Eph 4:7-10; Matt 27:51-53. The teaching of Purgatory or a place the soul goes after death which is *in between* Heaven and Hell, is not Biblical and not believed by the 'Christian' Churches.

Then where does "Judgement Day" come into it in your view? My understanding is that there is to be a "day of reckoning" in which those destined for Heaven and Hell are sorted out. That is hardly do-able if the ones destined for Heaven and Hell have already gone there.
Placidfemme's take on no one going to either until Judgement Day is not an uncommon view and there are scriptures to support it in the Bible, just as the scriptures you quoted support a differnt view. I also know of two churches based on the Bible and the teachings of Christ (by my definition "Christian") who hold the no one goes to Heaven/Hell except after Judgement Day as core tenets of their faith.

You are, of course, entitled to disagree with them. I'm not saying they are right (not qualified to as a pagan) but stating what they believe and why they believe it. Regrettably, my notes are buried in a box of my books in storage so I can't dig them out and post the scriptures they quote to support their view.