Speeding, is it the real issue?

[Shesti]

Now, I come from Europe, and I can say that infrastructure and speed are NOT the causes of people here crashing. It's simple - people here just can't drive. They are pampered by government laws, it's too easy to get the license, and speed limits make people mediocre. That is also THE ONLY reason for traffic jams in Auckland - people just don't know how to drive.
I was present when a guy got his motorcycle license without obviously being able to control his bike.
My friend is a taxi driver here, and he gets calls on a regular basis from people who just ask him to park their car?!?
You are not thought how to change lanes and include in traffic - instead of increasing the speed and keeping with the traffic - people here slow down and expect someone to brake and let them change lanes.
There are many examples - who's been driving in any European country knows what I mean.

Other things I've noticed:

I've seen much worse roads - and people driving much faster safely on them without problems.

Automatic transmission makes idiots of drivers - there's no way you can properly learn to drive unless driving manual.

100 kph speed limit is ridiculous. If that is normal - cars & bikes that go over 200 wouldn't be made.

In Germany there are Autobahns where there's no speed limit - and crash rate on them is above 50% less than on regular Autobahns. You drive much more careful when you know that someone can fly by you driving 250 or more (oh, yeah, driving slow in the right lane on motorway and not moving to the left when someone behind you is approaching faster is one of the things NZ drivers also do).
There was an experiment in America (I don't remember, Nevada or Arizona or something) where they've taken off speed limit from one portion of highway. For that portion - rate of crashes decreased 70%. As soon as they returned speed limit on - the crash rate got back to same again.

Speed limits in NZ are too low, and drivers are really bad. Investing in drivers education and raising the standards for issuing someone a drivers license - with a more practise driving oriented test, where driver actually proves that he/she is able to control the vehicle would do much more than limiting speed. All the crashes I've seen here are caused by the people that doesn't know how to control their vehicle. I haven't seen such rate of bad drives anywhere in the world, and believe me - I've been places In fact - I've been shocked seeing how people (cannot) drive here.

There's much to that, and personal responsibility and knowing your capabilities - never drive beyond them...but - if you never go near the border - you'll never improve...

[Akzle]

Wa-wa-fuckin' wa, cue cracked gramaphone record....



After long consideration of what should be the appropriate response to the above post I settled on this one.





Fuck off...........

na you

Now, I come from Europe, and I can say that infrastructure and speed are NOT the causes of people here crashing. It's simple - people here just can't drive. They are pampered by government laws, it's too easy to get the license, and speed limits make people mediocre. That is also THE ONLY reason for traffic jams in Auckland - people just don't know how to drive.
I was present when a guy got his motorcycle license without obviously being able to control his bike.
My friend is a taxi driver here, and he gets calls on a regular basis from people who just ask him to park their car?!?
You are not thought how to change lanes and include in traffic - instead of increasing the speed and keeping with the traffic - people here slow down and expect someone to brake and let them change lanes.
There are many examples - who's been driving in any European country knows what I mean.

Other things I've noticed:

I've seen much worse roads - and people driving much faster safely on them without problems.

Automatic transmission makes idiots of drivers - there's no way you can properly learn to drive unless driving manual.

100 kph speed limit is ridiculous. If that is normal - cars & bikes that go over 200 wouldn't be made.

In Germany there are Autobahns where there's no speed limit - and crash rate on them is above 50% less than on regular Autobahns. You drive much more careful when you know that someone can fly by you driving 250 or more (oh, yeah, driving slow in the right lane on motorway and not moving to the left when someone behind you is approaching faster is one of the things NZ drivers also do).
There was an experiment in America (I don't remember, Nevada or Arizona or something) where they've taken off speed limit from one portion of highway. For that portion - rate of crashes decreased 70%. As soon as they returned speed limit on - the crash rate got back to same again.

Speed limits in NZ are too low, and drivers are really bad. Investing in drivers education and raising the standards for issuing someone a drivers license - with a more practise driving oriented test, where driver actually proves that he/she is able to control the vehicle would do much more than limiting speed. All the crashes I've seen here are caused by the people that doesn't know how to control their vehicle. I haven't seen such rate of bad drives anywhere in the world, and believe me - I've been places In fact - I've been shocked seeing how people (cannot) drive here.

There's much to that, and personal responsibility and knowing your capabilities - never drive beyond them...but - if you never go near the border - you'll never improve...

despite the poor engrish - i completely agree with you.

[Shesti]

na you



despite the poor engrish - i completely agree with you.

Yeah... but considering I speak 5 languages and I'm only 2 years in New Zealand - it's not so bad
Anyway, this is not a language & grammar - but motorcycle forum, and I've seen English speaking people that spell worse than me

It's important that you clearly understand what I'm saying

Cheers

[FJRider]

Speed limits in NZ are too low, and drivers are really bad.

So .... in a country where you believe all the drivers are really bad (How long did you need to spend touring the country to find this out ... or have you only been to auckland ??) and you want the speed limit raised ... ???

[Shesti]

So .... in a country where you believe all the drivers are really bad (How long did you need to spend touring the country to find this out ... or have you only been to auckland ??) and you want the speed limit raised ... ???

I just gave you an example and statistics about removing speed limit completely...and of course, you seem to read selectively, 'cause you missed the part with raising the standards for getting license and investing in education of drivers...
Anyway - do you see anywhere in my post where I suggest raising the limit? Everything I said stands - 100 km/h IS ridiculous (and New Zealand is one of the few countries in the world that has speed limits so low - hmm, I wonder what are the rest of the few... ), people here CANNOT drive, and I've SEEN people driving faster completely safe on worse roads - if you want to know what I'm talking about - go to Italy, Greece, Turkey... all the Southern Europe, France, not to mention Germany, Austria... Do you know what's the procedure of getting license in any of these countries?

So first things first - and don't put the words in my mouth

[Berries]

I'm English and have driven throughout Europe and agree with most of what you say. Most of all I like your attitude, that will go down well on KB.

Anyway, this is not a language & grammar - but motorcycle forum

You'll learn.

[FJRider]

I just gave you an example and statistics about removing speed limit completely...and of course, you seem to read selectively, 'cause you missed the part with raising the standards for getting license and investing in education of drivers...

And I asked a question as to where you noticed these bad drivers you found ... and told us of in your post (the one I quoted from) and no reply.
If you are worried about the standard of driving in auckland ... either go back to europe where (by your admission) driving standards are so great .... try a different part of our country ... or go home.

But you seem to prefer here ... WHY ... ???

Anyway - do you see anywhere in my post where I suggest raising the limit? Everything I said stands - 100 km/h IS ridiculous (and New Zealand is one of the few countries in the world that has speed limits so low - hmm, I wonder what are the rest of the few... ), people here CANNOT drive, and I've SEEN people driving faster completely safe on worse roads - if you want to know what I'm talking about - go to Italy, Greece, Turkey... all the Southern Europe, France, not to mention Germany, Austria... Do you know what's the procedure of getting license in any of these countries?

So ... you think the speed limit is too low, the drivers are all bad, and you aren't in favour of raising the speed limit ... ???

If your experience of New Zealand drivers are solely based around auckland ... I suggest you look farther the the bombay hill ... (you've probably not been past there either)

So first things first - and don't put the words in my mouth

The words I quoted were yours. I believe the questions were fair.

[Scuba_Steve]

using the speed argument with bad drivers is a moot argument. These drivers are bad regardless of speed (& usually well below current limits). Lest we go to a 30km/h maximum the speed argument is effectively null & void, it is simply a red herring.

[FJRider]

using the speed argument with bad drivers is a moot argument. These drivers are bad regardless of speed (& usually well below current limits). Lest we go to a 30km/h maximum the speed argument is effectively null & void, it is simply a red herring.

Logic is not allowed in KB arguements ... bullshit, heresay and good old-fashioned opinion rules ... ok ???

[Shesti]

And I asked a question as to where you noticed these bad drivers you found ... and told us of in your post (the one I quoted from) and no reply.
If you are worried about the standard of driving in auckland ... either go back to europe where (by your admission) driving standards are so great .... try a different part of our country ... or go home.

But you seem to prefer here ... WHY ... ???

So ... you think the speed limit is too low, the drivers are all bad, and you aren't in favour of raising the speed limit ... ???

If your experience of New Zealand drivers are solely based around auckland ... I suggest you look farther the the bombay hill ... (you've probably not been past there either)

The words I quoted were yours. I believe the questions were fair.

Dude...you have some serious issues ... I recognize the type of person that won't be satisfied with any explanation given... The only one making assumptions here is you - I gave you facts, and a suggestion how the situation can be really improved - based on working models from another countries.

That "go home" part was really ugly

Anyway, I give up, hanging on forums and trying to explain something to people that are there just to feed their own frustrations was never actually my thing - I prefer riding

So - up on one of my bikes - and will leave you to comment this further

Cheers

[Shesti]

I'm English and have driven throughout Europe and agree with most of what you say. Most of all I like your attitude, that will go down well on KB.


You'll learn.

I see now what you've meant

Thanks, Cheers

[baffa]

Good points Shesti, dont worry about the trolls.

I have lived in NZ all my life, and I have to say, we are shockingly shit drivers.
Driving round in countries like Ireland, Uk, and France, you see the difference.
Even in Paris where people drive like they have a death wish, they are aware of their surroundings, dont hold up other drivers unnecessarily, and park neatly and efficiently.

If it was down to me, everyone would have one year to resit a new much tougher drivers license including skid pan work, high and low speed defensive driving, and of course road rules testing, in a manual. And you have to resit this test every 5 years.

Too many people who got their license 20+ years ago beleive they are accomplished drivers. Very few are.

[Indoo]

and I've SEEN people driving faster completely safe on worse roads - if you want to know what I'm talking about - go to Italy, Greece, Turkey... all the Southern Europe, France, not to mention Germany, Austria... Do you know what's the procedure of getting license in any of these countries?

And yet all those countries with the exception of Germany have a higher fatality rate per vehicle than we do.

[CRM]

I haven't read all of this but there are some interesting points for sure. I love it when I get in parts of the country where it's about riding to the conditions rather than to a speed limit - I'm sure whenever it's all about watching the speedo we don't ride as well - it's certainly not as enjoyable. Speed is simple to measure and enforce but as has been stated over and over again speed is a very poor measure of the likelihood of causing or being part of an accident. I'm not advocating crazy speeds by the way - just riding safely and appropriately for your skills and the conditions .

My second point is about the obsession that the authorities have with "fixing" our roads. There is a LOLCAT meme with a cat sitting on a keyboard with the caption "If it's not for sits then why is it made of warm?" We could say the same about our roads: "If its not for fasts why is it made of smooth?" Making corners "safer" just means we want to challenge that corner and our own skills by taking it faster. Yes there are dangerous bits of road that need fixing - but roads that follow natural contours are more fun to ride, more attractive and less impacting on the landscape - plus you don't go as fast as you can on our 100km/h "autobahns" .

Thirdly - what about a bit of self-policing? Sometimes I see drivers or riders doing crazy dangerous stuff without any regard to the safety of others. Maybe the *555 thing could be extended and encouraged so that actually dangerous behaviour (not speed as such but actual danger) could be reported and logged and actually dangerous people be sent off for re-programming .