Will Victory ever be a threat to Harley?

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110-odd years of marketing and sales

Generational ownership

Iconic status and identification as part of the wider national identity

H-D is a behemoth in it's prime market and it's position is extremely unlikely to change for years, if not decades

It has never been about being a "threat" to Harley, it's about recognising that the market had room to expand - ESPECIALLY with another, stable, and well funded, American brand.

Victory has unashamedly traded on the H-D Americana appeal to put another viable V-twin cruiser on the market and been patient enough to build their own identity with it.

The early Hammer-engined 92 VC's were a real H-D clone and they only appealed to the very conservative ( but still quite big) market that thinks motorcycle styling stopped circa 1965. They sold in small numbers, albeit to a passionate following, and combined with early transmission problems they looked destined to be yet another blip on the American cruiser scene quickly snuffed by the weight of the H-D legacy and distributorship

Fortunately Victory decided to push on with a distinctively different type of bike and with designer Michael Song and the Vegas in 2003 they found something to really build on. Micheal's designs combined with the Freedom 100 cu motor gave Victory a playing field all of their own. Like H-D but different enough that they can justifiably shrug off the "clone" comments that plague the Japanese cruisers they have now enjoyed over 9 years of successive double digit percentage growth in turbulent economic times.

They still probably only sell 10% of Harleys numbers but that's not small and their share is growing

There was another company 30 years ago that had a virtually identical sales story against H-D (in numbers terms)

Some whacky little outfit called Honda I believe

[Road kill]

Harley Davidson makes the most popular motorcycles on the planet.
What ever the many reasons all the haters come up with,,this is simple fact,,,Get over it !

Victory,,,just another one,sad fucks couldn't even come up with an idea of their own ,,,sure their not really japanese after all ?

[Big Dave]

If 'Popular' = best selling, then Hero (India) make the most world's most popular motorcycle.

If Brand recognition = popular then H-D is the only bike in the top 100 brands. (Depending on whose surveys you believe)

[skippa1]

Harley Davidson makes the most popular motorcycles on the planet.
What ever the many reasons all the haters come up with,,this is simple fact,,,Get over it !

Victory,,,just another one,sad fucks couldn't even come up with an idea of their own ,,,sure their not really japanese after all ?

Other bikes you own:

they come an go but I'm not biased your bad

[jrandom]

I have very particular tastes in motorcycles, as we all do, and the Harley-Davidson Nightster hits a real sweet spot for me. So I got one. I don't like every Harley ever, and I certainly avoid the whole image / brand / community thing. None of my friends ride Harleys and I wouldn't be seen dead at a H.O.G. event or wearing Harley branded clothing.

But this bike is just damn near perfect.



Most Victory bikes look too long and blobby and like a 1950s idea of futuristic design to me. They don't push my buttons. I like the High Ball, though. It has some things on it I'd change, but they're minor. I'll take one for a spin next time I'm up Haldanes way if they have a demo unit.

[Big Dave]

I wouldn't be seen dead at a H.O.G. event or wearing Harley branded clothing.

They don't miss you.

I've enjoyed the HOG events I've been too. Well run and sponsored affairs with lots of very decent folk.
A few blats with the Victory crew likewise - and the Triumph boys - and the Suzuki Boulevard lot regularly.
Funny thing is when you get to tag along - they are all remarkably similar - they just have different taste in veehickles.

[jrandom]

I've enjoyed the HOG events I've been too. Well run and sponsored affairs with lots of very decent folk.

Well, maybe I'll swallow my pride and pop along to one some day.

I reserve the right to write scathing things about it afterwards on the internet, though.

[Big Dave]

Carte blanche on the fashion sense.
That said - my favourite riding Jacket at the moment is an 'understated' Harley number.
The logo is slightly embossed till a headlight shines on it - then it becomes reflective hi-vis.
It's also remarkably waterproof for a leather garment with excellent armour and numerous nice touches - vents, gadget pockets, liners etc.

It comes down to you have to 'want' to go on a large, organised group ride with rulez - and all that entails too.
But for an example on how to run it with due consideration to safety protocols and the like - the HOGS have the best model.

[lakedaemonian]

except Husqvarna and Royal Enfield are both older as manufacturer's. Remember HD has been bailed out a few times by their govt over the years, had they not? HD would be among the 'dead ducks' of marque's. A lot of us old farts will remember the HD's of the late 60's early 70's they were FUCKING terrible heaps of SHITE, if you ever get a chance to ride an AMF era HD? Do it for the experience! it is the EVO engine that made HD 'popular' in the 1980's HD are in serious difficulty for sales, that is a printed fact/statement.. they are looking to 'international' sales to keep them ahead. The V rod was the bike that is/was supposed to attract those looking for a faster/sportier machine, yet in NZ/Aussie? They are not importing the XR1200, which is the best HD produced in My oipinion.
So please dont run away with the idea HD have always been the dogs bollox,,, by rights they should have gone the same way triumph/norton/villiers went in the 70's.

HD did get support from government, but not a bailout as such. What occurred was Japanese brands attacked Harley in their home market by dumping product below cost to try and kill Harley. The Japanese brands had the support of their government in doing so. Harley asked for and got tariffs places on all Japanese bikes over 700CC....hence that weird blip of 700cc bikes in the 80's from Japan down from 750cc.

Harley recovered with the Evo/Softail...and went back to government and asked to have the tarriff removed earlier than it's original expiry.

Harley had some serious difficulty in the US, serious difficulty much along the lines of collateralized mortgages(but with Harleys)....that is behind them. What's in front of them is being able to build any given bike on any given day on any given production line. They've been slow to bring their manufacturing and logistics flexibility and adaptability into the 19th century(quality control is quite good) so that their 19th century manufacturing and logistics machine can match their 21st century marketing machine.

Dealer stock levels(with fewer total dealers) in the US are back to early 2000s stocking levels, dealers are complaining about not having enough stock in the US right now....but they are no longer marking up bikes by $2-5K above RRP on a 12-18 month waiting list.

The US market is actually quite healthy for Harley dealers at the moment on average.....but it was a hard 5+ years for many.

You are entirely correct about AMF...they are complete shite.


Really Ferrari are the 'niche market machine' like you say Victory is to the HD. Ferrari is equalled/outperformed by Porsche as an example. Lambourghini/ferrari are small production manufactureres, porsche are mass produced. Therin lies the appeal of the Italian marques, exclusivity.. HD are now like assholes, they are everywhere and the bubble for HD WILL burst sooner rather than later I believe.

Ferrari is not a perfect analogy.......BUT the relationship between existing customer pre-orders for upcoming Ferrari and Harley new models has been a quite similar pattern over the past 15+ years.

Ferrari is popularly and commonly viewed as a status symbol and benchmark of life for the wealthy.

HD is popularly and commonly viewed as a status symbol and benchmark of life for Joe Bloggs.

Ferrari has Modena, Harley has Milwaukee....both locations are quite brand centric and have become the respective Meccas for their large customer bases....with considerable economic activity supporting JUST rabid fans of the respective brands.

Same goes with merchandise debth and variety.......no one else even comes close.

Personally, I think the biggest issue for Harley since the AMF days, beyond the aforementioned manufacturing/logisitics/distribution agility/flexibility is a new entry level bike family.

In the 1960s the biggest bikes on the road were smaller than the smallest bike Harley produces today.

With an exploding developing world market that devours smaller displacement bikes by the millions, a need to reach down into a younger demographic in the developed world, as well as price inflation hidden through less product(think supermarket shelf where a can of soup is reduced in size to hide inflation) a new entry level model family for Harley is probably as important as the introduction of the Evo/Softail in 1984.

[Dangsta]

Harley's are okay bikes and affordable status symbols. They look pretty gnarly and if you don't like stock then they've got plenty of shiny options for you. When I didn't know how to ride I still knew what a Harley was. Now I ride, and I'm more aware of what's on the road, it seems like every second bikes a Harley but I still take a second look....and I still find myself wanting one. That's even now I know that there are other cheaper, just as or even more powerful, more reliable options out there. Maybe the whole Harley thing is that they appeal to non-riders in a way that Honda's or Suzuki's just don't. When I see a Porsche Boxter, I assume they can't afford a 911. When I look at my S83, I know it's because I can't afford a Harley. Still love my Suzuki but if I had the coin I'd own a Harley. Sad but true.

[skippa1]

Still love my Suzuki but if I had the coin I'd own a Harley. Sad but true.

Why settle for second best, get a Victory

[ratusratus]

Harley's are okay bikes and affordable status symbols. They look pretty gnarly and if you don't like stock then they've got plenty of shiny options for you. When I didn't know how to ride I still knew what a Harley was. Now I ride, and I'm more aware of what's on the road, it seems like every second bikes a Harley but I still take a second look....and I still find myself wanting one. That's even now I know that there are other cheaper, just as or even more powerful, more reliable options out there. Maybe the whole Harley thing is that they appeal to non-riders in a way that Honda's or Suzuki's just don't. When I see a Porsche Boxter, I assume they can't afford a 911. When I look at my S83, I know it's because I can't afford a Harley. Still love my Suzuki but if I had the coin I'd own a Harley. Sad but true.

Dont be sad mate cause when you get a Harley you will love it.....:-)