Gareth Morgan in the Herald on ACC levies for bikers

[flyingcrocodile46]

If you're going to hammer in a big nail you're better off using a big hammer.

Fucking dinosaur. In this day and age the enlightened use screws Hammers and nails are sooo yesterday.

If nothing else, our news headlines repeatedly show us the damage that results from fuckwits using big hammers in all walks of life. It is a tool for people who are too fucking retarded to use more sophisticated and effective tools. Do schools use hammers? NO! Why the fuck not? Because they don't fucking work.

SET UP A FUCKING INCENTIVE SYSTEM. It ain't rocket science, just common fucking sense.

[Kickaha]

On conspicuity - no we have not decided it IS the answer but an analysis of the data (with caveats around the lack of total preciseness but the data is good enough to show the trend and relativity) shows that a lack of conspicuity contributes as a factor (small contribution to a main contribution) in about 60 to 65% of motorcycle crashes. Given this we decided that conspicuity as one factor is worth time and effort to better understand. It's not a silver bullet if fixed but it is a common enough factor to be worried about it.

Have you looked at data from both pre and post "headlight on" legislation?

[MrKiwi]

Have you looked at data from both pre and post "headlight on" legislation?

Yes. One of the challenges from the data is being able to identify the results of a single intervention against the background of multiple factors. The data has been analysed and there is a trend but it is not possible to accurately ascribe outcomes to a specific intervention other than a trend. Accidents normally associated with a lack of visibility trended downwards post the legislation but was masked by an increase in motorbikes on the road at the time and that quite a few riders already rode with lights on anyway.

However, I have to declare an interest in the headlight on legislation as this was an intervention I managed through government when previously working at the Ministry of Transport leading the road safety policy programme. The main rationale for the headlights on legislation was to create a distinction between bikes and other road users. This distinction is gradually being lost for day time riding as more and more cars now have day time running lights fitted as standard equipment.

[bogan]

Yes. One of the challenges from the data is being able to identify the results of a single intervention against the background of multiple factors. The data has been analysed and there is a trend but it is not possible to accurately ascribe outcomes to a specific intervention other than a trend. Accidents normally associated with a lack of visibility trended downwards post the legislation but was masked by an increase in motorbikes on the road at the time and that quite a few riders already rode with lights on anyway.

However, I have to declare an interest in the headlight on legislation as this was an intervention I managed through government when previously working at the Ministry of Transport leading the road safety policy programme. The main rationale for the headlights on legislation was to create a distinction between bikes and other road users. This distinction is gradually being lost for day time riding as more and more cars now have day time running lights fitted as standard equipment.

Will the data/analysis be made public?

I think conspicuity is up there with loss of control, in that it is a big box to pidgeon hole the majority of accidents into. I mean lets face it, for an accident to occur, if they are in control, 99% of the time it'll they have been unobservant (conspicuity). This makes it attractive to try and make things more conspicuous. However, the reality of the situation is far more complicated than brightness == visibility; any analysis which doesn't address this point will be flawed, and useless.

[GrayWolf]

Fucking dinosaur. In this day and age the enlightened use screws Hammers and nails are sooo yesterday.

If nothing else, our news headlines repeatedly show us the damage that results from fuckwits using big hammers in all walks of life. It is a tool for people who are too fucking retarded to use more sophisticated and effective tools. Do schools use hammers? NO! Why the fuck not? Because they don't fucking work.

SET UP A FUCKING INCENTIVE SYSTEM. It ain't rocket science, just common fucking sense.

Actually the 'hammer approach' was very effective when used correctly. Many 'old sods' here will remember the 'love shown' by teachers with a slipper or cane at school.
Would I advocate some of the beatings we had dished out? NO...
BUT what the 'hammer' did give was a 'CONCRETE CONSEQUENCE' Do that and this WILL happen. A definite line in the sand, that if you chose to cross, you did so knowing the likely outcome. Did we? Hell yes, I am sure I was one of the kids who kept the asain bamboo cane industry going.
what you say is correct, when the 'hammer' is used by a fuckwit? it's all turns to custard. History also shows some highly successful hammer users.
Our Driving while under the influence laws are a good 'demonstration' of an incentive law...... a 6 month suspension of licence, community service? Cmon, lets get serious, 5 yrs minimum.. if you kill someone? Life ban, with NO reprieve..... lets take it from there for any following offences.

[Katman]

I think conspicuity is up there with loss of control, in that it is a big box to pidgeon hole the majority of accidents into. I mean lets face it, for an accident to occur, if they are in control, 99% of the time it'll they have been unobservant (conspicuity).

(Ignoring the idea of apportioning 'fault' for a moment).....

All this talk of conspicuity fails to address the fact that with better observational skills motorcyclists would be more likely to avoid the unobservant driver.

Blindness works both ways you know.

[bogan]

(Ignoring the idea of apportioning 'fault' for a moment).....

All this talk of conspicuity fails to address the fact that with better observational skills motorcyclists would be more likely to avoid the unobservant driver.

Blindness works both ways you know.

Exactly my point, 'visibility' is just one part of a much larger problem caused by unobservant road users. It is too easy for legislators to equate the two and burden us with ineffective yellow rubbish (and I'm not talking about suzukis here ).

[Katman]

Exactly my point, 'visibility' is just one part of a much larger problem caused by unobservant road users. It is too easy for legislators to equate the two and burden us with ineffective yellow rubbish (and I'm not talking about suzukis here ).

The last thing I ever want is to be forced to wear day-glo.

Trouble is, if motorcyclists don't start using their eyes and their brains, that's exactly where we're heading.

[MrKiwi]

The last thing I ever want is to be forced to wear day-glo.

Trouble is, if motorcyclists don't start using their eyes and their brains that's exactly where we're heading.

I certainly hope we we do not end up with day-glo being mandatory. Being seen is important and there are several ways that can be achieved, but so much more depends on how we ride our bike is my view.

[GrayWolf]

I certainly hope we we do not end up with day-glo being mandatory. Being seen is important and there are several ways that can be achieved, but so much more depends on how we ride our bike is my view.

I think many share your hope, and the more this subject is discussed I'd guess there will be more and more fracturing of the debate at many levels.

One of your statements does pique my 'red flag' curiosity. Not what you said but how Politicians would 'grasp it' and run with it.... That conspicuity is a "small contributing factor in a larger contributing factor" It's the ease of identification that a poli' will love. We cant actually 'prove' the driver was daydreaming, SMIDSY may be admitted, but then of course if we are wearing hi-vis? But hang on, what about this 55watt halogen headlight thingy perched on the front of the bike that's supposed to be a visual 'reminder'?

Poli's look for the easy way out, 'minor' contribution or not, the fact there is an identification of commonality of partial cause? WILL be enough for them, thank you very much. Day lights? As has been mentioned in other places, cars are now using LED daylights, so that is going to lose 'impact' ,,,, maybe we do need something to improve 'eye catching' headlight modulators? We all know politicians want 'quick results' every time over long term benefit, so they 'look good' to the plebeians.
Maybe the thing to do for us is to NOT identify a 'quick fix' for them, but purely tout for 'long term, long haul' fixes.

[Katman]

maybe we do need something to improve 'eye catching' headlight modulators?

Is it not infinitely preferable (if not easier) to start insisting that motorcyclists use their eyes?

[Scuba_Steve]

End of day people don't see rastuscat on his popo bike, don't see these brightly coloured big pieces of steel we call buses, they don't see the HUGE noisy "Hi-Vis'd" piece of steel we call trains, they sure as hell aint gonna see a tiny hi-vised biker... Hi-vis is NOT an answer, it won't make bikes anymore safe & has the flow on effect of making people who have to wear them (road workers for example) less safe due to "overcrowding" which is the last thing they need, they're already being made unsafe by "boy who cried wolf" temporary speed signs

[Katman]

End of day people don't see rastuscat on his popo bike, don't see these brightly coloured big pieces of steel we call buses, they don't see the HUGE noisy "Hi-Vis'd" piece of steel we call trains, they sure as hell aint gonna see a tiny hi-vised biker... Hi-vis is NOT an answer, it won't make bikes anymore safe & has the flow on effect of making people who have to wear them (road workers for example) less safe due to "overcrowding" which is the last thing they need, they're already being made unsafe by "boy who cried wolf" temporary speed signs

Bingo.

The only answer is to expect greater accountability from ourselves for our own welfare.

[Berries]

End of day people don't see rastuscat on his popo bike

May be they do?

Just saying.

[bogan]

Bingo.

The only answer is to expect greater accountability from ourselves for our own welfare.

Which is good for numero uno, but what about others? I often notice how other people happily sit in blind spots, or just be content looking at indicators to figure out what other cars will do, why not try to stop them from having accidents as well as ourselves?