Christchurch crash facts

[swbarnett]

They want people not to speed, or break other traffic laws. To make that message known they punish people who do such things. How exactly is that a scam?

The scam part is not on the part of the cop on the ground. Can't really blame them for doing what they believe in. It comes from the "scientists" and politicians that set the laws in the first place. Based on nothing more than emotioin and flawed assumptions.

[oneofsix]

The scam part is not on the part of the cop on the ground. Can't really blame them for doing what they believe in. It comes from the "scientists" and politicians that set the laws in the first place. Based on nothing more than emotioin and flawed assumptions.

I object to the use of the word "scientists", even when quoted. There is no science involved, perhaps some statistically juggling trying to pass itself off as science, but no real science. Politicians, emotional idiots and want to be statisticians hoping for a single headline grabbing fix, the media groups with the emotional idiots usually.

[duckonin]

You want a bunch of people to learn to ride from scratch on the track? That's gonna be bloody hard to fund, and will see new rider numbers plummet.

Controlling your machine does not need to be done fast, and most of it can be extrapolated from riding around a carpark or similar.

Drew, 'new rider' numbers are plummeting why ?
. A carpark offers nothing to any person to a point. A wide open space does. The comment you make (controlling your machine does not need to be done fast ). To use a track does not mean 'race/speed' it really is an area that can be used to modulate one's riding ability.

You learn nothing staying at the same level,. Levels have to be built on, hence experience gained. To gain a learners licence is a joke. A lady I spent time with went for her learners licence in Thames recently. Test was weave around five cones in a school playground, come to a stop with both feet on the ground,Passed that great. 'Really what a joke'.
Headed off down town passed the scratchies, issued a licence, then cut off into the wide world. Just as well she had spent a month with me first learning to ride around paddocks with the occasional fore out onto the quiet roads together. And yes we did the 'off to the netball courts' around cones and such.

She won a day with a riding school at Pukekohe that Tauranga Ulysses put up as a prize at their Easter egg run, this was on a track. After completing this day she beamed feeling she had learn't so much more about control of her bike. And a big thumbs up to those that ran the day.

[Drew]

Hmmm, wonder if it was the location that was most beneficial to your friends riding or the training?

I cannot be bothered with this argument as it never goes anywhere. I have considered your point and still think the track has fuck all to do with it.

[swbarnett]

I object to the use of the word "scientists", even when quoted. There is no science involved, perhaps some statistically juggling trying to pass itself off as science, but no real science. Politicians, emotional idiots and want to be statisticians hoping for a single headline grabbing fix, the media groups with the emotional idiots usually.

I totally agree. You've captured what I was trying to imply perfectly.

[GrayWolf]

Drew, 'new rider' numbers are plummeting why ?
. A carpark offers nothing to any person to a point. A wide open space does. The comment you make (controlling your machine does not need to be done fast ). To use a track does not mean 'race/speed' it really is an area that can be used to modulate one's riding ability.

You learn nothing staying at the same level,. Levels have to be built on, hence experience gained. To gain a learners licence is a joke. A lady I spent time with went for her learners licence in Thames recently. Test was weave around five cones in a school playground, come to a stop with both feet on the ground,Passed that great. 'Really what a joke'.
Headed off down town passed the scratchies, issued a licence, then cut off into the wide world. Just as well she had spent a month with me first learning to ride around paddocks with the occasional fore out onto the quiet roads together. And yes we did the 'off to the netball courts' around cones and such.

She won a day with a riding school at Pukekohe that Tauranga Ulysses put up as a prize at their Easter egg run, this was on a track. After completing this day she beamed feeling she had learn't so much more about control of her bike. And a big thumbs up to those that ran the day.

Duck, you are correct, EXPERIENCE needs to be built on and levels do need to progress... Experience on the track 'may' teach you to lean, brake harder, enter/exit corners, etc. I would completely agree with Drew, the track surface and environment has little correlation to riding on the road. Track days, do have value i wont deny this, however, as was shown by grantman's 'king of' CBR250 vid a newbie 'going for it' using 'race technique's' with little to no real understanding of the 'mechanics' involved to do it properly. I ride 365 and having learnt in England where they get 'real winters' no learner has 'experience' be it car, scooter or motorcycle until they have ridden a full year and dealt with all the various riding conditions, surface effects and weather conditions. Then yes, that could be the time to introduce 'handling' techniques that allow faster progress on a road.
What I have constantly argued over 'race riding' technique is that the 'Bible' (roadcraft manual) does not use 'race lines or handling techniques'... and as was shown in another thread, a UK Police 'persuit' driver was only a few seconds behind a touring car race driver, on a race circuit. Roadcraft teaches anticipation, observation and teaches/informs the skills needed to handle the bike in 'real world' riding conditions. Courses run with these principals will be of far greater benefit than any 'track day' for riders early on in their riding life.

[Punchy]

I think the last 10 pages can be summed up pretty quickly.

There is no magic bullet. Use your brain, your eyes, and keep practicing.

Police are more interested in people making it home to their families than making money for donuts.

[Swoop]

I think the last 10 pages can be summed up pretty quickly.

There is no magic bullet. Use your brain, your eyes, and keep practicing.

Also, ride by yourself (avoid group rides).

[Drew]

Also, ride by yourself (avoid group rides).

Don't be so fucking stupid, who will be impressed by my wheelies if the noobs don't come on group rides?

[Scuba_Steve]

Don't be so fucking stupid, who will be impressed by my wheelies if the noobs don't come on group rides?

You not discovered YouTube yet??? you can get street cred from pre-teen kids worldwide with that, why limit yourself locally.

[bandit600]

riding is a privilege; Some choose to ride for pleasure and some for the sheer thrill of how fast they can go; I agree with the fact of NO SPEEDING NO TICKETS! I have been riding thirty odd years and the only ticket I have had was for purportedly crossing a centre line; Can't argue with three traffic officers in the middle of the Hundalees near Kaikoura; My point is the rider is responsible predominately for their own safety and well-being on the road; Those that speed should not be given just a ticket they should be made to attend the emergency department and some acute areas to see the effects a crash has on the Rider; Stay safe out there!

[duckonin]

Duck, you are correct, EXPERIENCE needs to be built on and levels do need to progress... Experience on the track 'may' teach you to lean, brake harder, enter/exit corners, etc. I would completely agree with Drew, the track surface and environment has little correlation to riding on the road. Track days, do have value i wont deny this, however, as was shown by grantman's 'king of' CBR250 vid a newbie 'going for it' using 'race technique's' with little to no real understanding of the 'mechanics' involved to do it properly. I ride 365 and having learnt in England where they get 'real winters' no learner has 'experience' be it car, scooter or motorcycle until they have ridden a full year and dealt with all the various riding conditions, surface effects and weather conditions. Then yes, that could be the time to introduce 'handling' techniques that allow faster progress on a road.
What I have constantly argued over 'race riding' technique is that the 'Bible' (roadcraft manual) does not use 'race lines or handling techniques'... and as was shown in another thread, a UK Police 'persuit' driver was only a few seconds behind a touring car race driver, on a race circuit. Roadcraft teaches anticipation, observation and teaches/informs the skills needed to handle the bike in 'real world' riding conditions. Courses run with these principals will be of far greater benefit than any 'track day' for riders early on in their riding life.

Yes thank you GW.. The most of my point is missed.. Everyone focuses on a 'track' as being a place to go fast.

As for Grantmans 'king' of CBR who cares about his 'race techniques' nope not I.

( Using a 'race track' forget that word, forget track days. Use 'safe wide open spaces' with no cars coming the other way, that way it does not conjure up the terrible word associated with a track ' speed/racing. I am not speaking of 'Race riding technique' /race lines,/ knee down bullshit..I speak of a good safe play ground with a good surface for a learner to enjoy. , how to stop, start, accelerate, turn, duck, dodge and weave untill they can move their bike safetly without fear of being hit up the arse if they do something wrong. which is exactly what would happen if they stalled their bike at some stop lights or ,give way sign, or just plain missed a gear change.

[GrayWolf]

Yes thank you GW.. The most of my point is missed.. Everyone focuses on a 'track' as being a place to go fast.

As for Grantmans 'king' of CBR who cares about his 'race techniques' nope not I.

( Using a 'race track' forget that word, forget track days. Use 'safe wide open spaces' with no cars coming the other way, that way it does not conjure up the terrible word associated with a track ' speed/racing. I am not speaking of 'Race riding technique' /race lines,/ knee down bullshit..I speak of a good safe play ground with a good surface for a learner to enjoy. , how to stop, start, accelerate, turn, duck, dodge and weave untill they can move their bike safetly without fear of being hit up the arse if they do something wrong. which is exactly what would happen if they stalled their bike at some stop lights or ,give way sign, or just plain missed a gear change.

Thank You Duck
I think you are correct, 'track day' immediately draws an image of 'hard out'.. possibly a perception fostered by those who 'rave about them'... I'd agree 100% with your thoughts re; riding in a safe area, to learn basic skills. Even to take it further and use the UK system of escorted/radio linked rides with highly experienced (Police or similar level) riders. I'm pretty sure there are other 'Donut Protectors' out there with a similar mindset to Rastuscat.... My guess is its the Paula's of this world who are just not interested in allowing a bit of 'community service' overtime for them. Last year my shifts clashed with every one of the local ACC funded courses, which was downright annoying to say the least.. I am determined to get one in this season, even if it means taking annual leave to accomplish it.. I am positive I will be 'scorched' for developing more bad habits than I realise

[Gremlin]

For those that are referencing skilled road riding, ala police time, look no further than the Institute of Advanced Motorists or IAM (http://www.nz-iam.org.nz/default.asp) It's for all motorists, but the motorcycle section is based off the UK IAM course which is based off the police rider training... not many countries have it available outside the UK, so we're lucky.

Everything has it's place, tracks are for learning the limits of machine and person in a relatively safe environment (emphasis on relative). The core skills for racing and road riding are completely different.

Racing is the fastest line, hardest braking, hardest acceleration. Road riding is the safest line (often you'd never hit the "apex" of the corner), minimal braking and acceleration and maximum visibility creating a smooth ride. Do it all, gain the skills and apply the correct ones for each given situation.

[rastuscat]

Will those of you who continue to write sensible stuff on my posts kindly desist. It's beginning to worry me that I might have people out there who agree with me.