Christchurch crash facts

[wasiler]

Will do, cheers

Wow! you read all that? I'm impressed. Did not think you had it in you. Good job

[Drew]

Any of you track day advocates ever raced bikes? Plenty of fuckwits who can't ride or control their bikes out there, just look at my record.

[Oakie]

So, if NZ wants to get kids from wiping out on the streets, they need to promote track time. Not these remedial basic how to operate a bike classes. Let them push their limits.

Well that sounds like an interesting idea

I can't think of a track day where someone did not crash.

And that's why it can't happen.

[wasiler]

Any of you track day advocates ever raced bikes? Plenty of fuckwits who can't ride or control their bikes out there, just look at my record.

I use to have wera license. Maybe you can tell me where I can find more info on events and classes? What record are you talking about? I have also been on the track with plenty of fuckwits

[rastuscat]

Whose crap driving? Your presentation of stats does not identify whether it's car or biker who is not giving way, and your statement about your predatory actions against any offender does not state which party you target. For your persuasive document to not be weasel words, you should clarify these points entirely, or else all we end up granting you is consent to arbitrarily target us on a meaningless basis, which we do not.

You appear to assume that we are targeting motorcyclists. In regard to deterrence theory, it's possible to target individuals, groups, or behaviours. We don't target individuals or groups, we target behaviours. Whoever acts in the risk taking fashion gets targetted. Worry not, if we catch cars, bikes, cycles etc failing to give way, we treat them all equally badly.

E.g. if I'm sitting at a traffic light intersection, waiting for someone to crash the lights, I don't get to choose who it is. They do. I just grab whoever crashes the lights, be it bike, car, truck, bus, cyclist etc.

In regard to motorcyclists losing control on a seemingly innocuous piece of road - you threaten to target bikers is such a way that penalises them, yet you do not identify precisely what is the cause of the problem.

I can almost guarantee that people lose it on corners due to a bad line on the entry to that corner. I've cocked a few up in my day, it's a brave rider who claims not to have. Thing is, I cant find a law that allows me to enforce cornering lines. I guess what I'm saying is that in my line of work, I have limitations on what I can do. I can't set up a school to run training sessions, I can't operate the controls of someones bike. I can, however, enforce speed, engage with riders,
do high profile deterrence. So thats what I'm saying we'll do. It's not a threat at all. It's just a heads up as to what I am having my section do. Possibly you'd rather I hid in bushes, and did it all on the quiet. No deterrence value in that.

One thing I know for sure is that the faster I go into a corner on a bad line, the greater the degree of pucker that happens. I have survived my bad entries mostly by having enough spare room due to not flying at low level.

as you suggest there ARE scratch marks on the road from footpegs scraping where the rider is INDEED travelling at a greater speed that the motorcycle is CAPABLE or taking this corner, or have you considered that the rider has some difficulty mentally managing such a manoevre, and that the problem is rectifible with training?

We don't deliver training, but there are three local motorcycle schools that do. They got really busy after ACC started heavily subsidising their course, all good. Most people riding bikes have not done training. It's voluntary, and most of us just don't think we need it. I think most on here will remember that I shamelessly promoted the ACC subsidies down here last financial year, I even came up with a scheme to let people off tickets if they went and did training. I think training is the answer, but it's not the role of the Popo to deliver it; there are trainers far better qualified to deliver that than me. My part of the picture is enforcement.

concede that bikers consider it good weekend sport to ride their motorcycles in a spirited fashion on public roads, and I concede there will always be some risk associated with this for those not expertly qualified (extensive track time), but if you really would like to resolve issues as you purport then you should take a far more analytical approach and address the issues one by one as they arise.

So, extensive track time is the answer? Yeah right. It's part of the answer, especially for the lone vehicle loss of control crashes, but how many intersections are there at Ruapuna? Does it teach you to interact with traffic, and avoid the Monday to Friday failing to give way crashes? Track time is valuable as PART of the answer, but it isn't the answer on its own.

If you're going to ask for detail, please be specific which details you want.

[wasiler]

Well that sounds like an interesting idea And that's why it can't happen.

I guess things are done here a little differently. I guess NZ govt would rather these ass-hats lose control and run over a child on the side of the rode. Yes, what was I thinking. Why wreck in a controlled environment with medical on staff. Let's have them run over some child first and then make a mad run from the police. *Sarcasm* Well, at least I know now what to expect. Best of luck you guys.

[Oakie]

Why wreck in a controlled environment with medical on staff.

Because you can't have an acccident prevention course that causes more accidents than happen on the road.

Let's have them run over some child first.

See those are the skills that a standard old road based course will teach you. Doubt whether you get that sort of learning on the track

Well, at least I know now what to expect. Best of luck you guys.

Glad to have helped. Ride safe buddy.

[wasiler]

So, extensive track time is the answer? Yeah right. It's part of the answer, especially for the lone vehicle loss of control crashes, but how many intersections are there at Ruapuna? Does it teach you to interact with traffic, and avoid the Monday to Friday failing to give way crashes? Track time is valuable as PART of the answer, but it isn't the answer on its own.

If you're going to ask for detail, please be specific which details you want.

In the U.S. we had the option of taking a course from the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF). I guess over half the people I know did this because it did not cost that much more than getting your driver's license and it was training over the weekend. Also they provided the bike and said don't worry about dropping it (bikes were junk) because a lot of people would drop it on the more technical stuff. The course pushed their limits and showed how the bike could fall over and how easy it is to crash at low speed. They taught us all the basics about interacting with traffic, lines, stopping and being fully aware of our surrounding...etc. Ride as if you are invisible. There was also a 100 question test they gave. I believe it was 1/2 day in class and 1 1/2 on the course (weekend). Once you passed the course, they gave you a card and then you took it to the driver's license department to get your photo and real license. Do they have something like that here? I see these "L" plates for lower cc beginner bikes which is a good idea. We didn't have that but, makes sense.

I was under the impression most everyone here went through some sort of basic class before jumping on a bike and hitting the street. If not, maybe that should be a requirement to getting their license.

I am a strong supporter of track time. It sounds like you already know where that comes into play.

[rastuscat]

Do they have something like that here? I see these "L" plates for lower cc beginner bikes which is a good idea. We didn't have that but, makes sense.

I was under the impression most everyone here went through some sort of basic class before jumping on a bike and hitting the street. If not, maybe that should be a requirement to getting their license.

I am a strong supporter of track time. It sounds like you already know where that comes into play.

I've attended a lot of track days, both officially and personally. It's great for providing a low risk environment for allowing braking and cornering practise. It allows a rider to feel out the limits of both them-self and their bike. And it can be fun too.

Trouble is, it provides bugger all real world interaction, where most crashes happen. So it's part of the solution, but not all. Most track training sessions eventually turn into an excuse for a hoon.

Back in the day here it was a laugh to get a bike licence. Answer 5 oral questions, and you're good to go. You had a provisional for 6 weeks, then went onto a full. It's how I got mine. No restriction on what you could ride back then either, but then, most of the bikes weren't as heinous in terms of HP as now. The RD350LC I rode was the coolest.

Back in maybe the late 80s we went to what happens now. It takes longer to get your licence, and limits the size of bike. The system has so many holes in it, it leaks. The LAMS system is improving the situation, but there are other big problems.

Lots of folk got full licences when they were 19, and haven't ridden a bike since. 20 years later they can do buy a Huyabusa, and ride it away. The only limit on the power is their ability to pay the purchase price.

An aspect of making it harder to get a licence is the tendency of some to decide just to rebel, say sod the law, and ride whatever they want anyway. I have a couple of acquaintances who didn't want to ride a 250, they just wanted a Harley. Out they went, bought the Harley, and just dont bother with the licence. Make it too hard, and you encourage non compliance.

Training is not compulsory here, it's voluntary. An aspect of this is that those who need it normally need it because they have an adverse mentality. Those who seek out training generally already have a safety mentality, so ironically, are less in need.

Thing is, we can sit around and bitch about the system, but we have what we have. It's what we are having to deal with each day. It'll change some day, just not yet. Until then, we have the existing leaky laws and systems to live with.

The only constant is donuts.

[willytheekid]

I was under the impression most everyone here went through some sort of basic class before jumping on a bike and hitting the street. If not, maybe that should be a requirement to getting their license.

I am a strong supporter of track time. It sounds like you already know where that comes into play.

"Basic", unfortunately, is the key word...its the same with car licenses to.
If you can keep it upright or off the footpaths for 30-60mins...you get a license!
Personally I think there should be much higher standards introduced, and mandatory driver & rider road safety training.

...and we should punish drunk drivers MUCH more harshly!!

Driving & Riding on public roads is NOT someones right!...its a privileged!

Ride safe KBers

[mossy1200]

Refer OP
Accidents seem to be where the bikes are.

On the way to work and back and recreational on the weekend. Hows that surprising when people use the bike to get to and from work but not during working hours and people dont seem to ride to work on a fine weekend.

Thats not a trend or pattern. The trend is the risk of falling off increases if your riding your bike.

[Berries]

Accidents seem to be where the bikes are.

On the way to work and back and recreational on the weekend. Hows that surprising when people use the bike to get to and from work but not during working hours and people dont seem to ride to work on a fine weekend.

It has also just been revealed that crashes in the dark are most likely to occur at night.

Be careful out there.

[Oakie]

Back in the day here it was a laugh to get a bike licence. Answer 5 oral questions, and you're good to go. You had a provisional for 6 weeks, then went onto a full. It's how I got mine. No restriction on what you could ride back then either, but then, most of the bikes weren't as heinous in terms of HP as now. The RD350LC I rode was the coolest.

Hmm. One of the local bike cops when I was starting out had an RD350LC for his personal bike. You don't sound like him, but just in case, I don't suppose you were based in Oamaru many years ago?

[FJRider]

Driving & Riding on public roads is NOT someones right!...its a privileged!

Ride safe KBers

It is a right ... if certain legal conditions the individual concerned needs to make ... are met.

Just as the right of all road-users ... to expect all road-users to obey the road rules.

If you abuse the rights of others ... it's hardly fair to expect your rights to be respected.

[swbarnett]

I can almost guarantee that people lose it on corners due to a bad line on the entry to that corner. ... One thing I know for sure is that the faster I go into a corner on a bad line, the greater the degree of pucker that happens.

Indeed, it's the bad line that's the problem, coupled with riding at a speed that leaves no margin for error, not the speed in and of itself. Considering this, would you perhaps let a rider off a speed infringement if, for the particular corner that was observed, the line was good and it was clear that there was still margin for error?