Norton 961 - The saga still unfolding

[Motu]

It's just branding, using a name to sell something. In 2525 someone will be selling an iPad, Apple logo and all - a modern version of whatever the hell is on the market then with the look an feel of the ancient ipad. Going forward by looking back.

[Kickaha]

Saw one of these on Russley road today, dunno if it's the same one that I've seen racing or not

[lakedaemonian]

Hands up who remembers when Harley used the USA Gov protection laws to tax other makes over 700cc in the US it didn't help them not going bust again.

I don't remember that...because that's not what happened.

The Japanese were dumping product on the US market at costs THEY themselves couldn't indefinitely sustain in order to kill a weak Harley-Davidson.

It was anti-competitive. The Japanese were cooperating in an attempt to destroy HD.

Harley-Davidson applied for protection and received it in the form of tariffs for bikes over 700CC for a period, hence that batch of 700CC bikes for a bit in the 80's.

It provided HD the breathing space to sort their shit out and HD actually asked the government to pull the pin on the tariff support EARLY because they DID sort their shit out allowing them to compete against the Japanese on a level playing field.

If you want to talk dodgy and unfair......you should have a look at Japan's "tariffs".

I was part of a company that produced the highest quality best value semiconductor equipment in the world at the time. We couldn't crack the Japanese market no matter how hard we tried.

Our gear was more expensive than the Japanese competitor, but it was also light years more productive providing about 40% better bang for the buck.

We never got a single machine into Japan....not because of tariffs, but because of "tariffs" such as failing to meet obscure design/safety/and environmental standards that had no legitimate basis in fact. There wasn't a tariff, they simply built a paper wall to prevent superior value for dollar product from competing in the Japanese market......they were and are notorious for it.

The economic value of the tariff against Japan to provide HD with a thin layer of temporary protection was a drop in the bucket compared to what was happening in the opposite direction.

As as as "didn't help them from not going bust again." I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

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And to post something at least somewhat related to the Norton topic.......I reckon the new Nortons look brilliant....would be proud to see one in my garage.....but the brand seems to have an aura of bad luck about it much like Indian over the years(particularly the last 10+)

[Paul in NZ]

but the brand seems to have an aura of bad luck about it much like Indian over the years(particularly the last 10+)

Bad luck and under capitalized adventurers with stars in their eyes.... Very sad....

[GrayWolf]

I don't remember that...because that's not what happened.

The Japanese were dumping product on the US market at costs THEY themselves couldn't indefinitely sustain in order to kill a weak Harley-Davidson.

It was anti-competitive. The Japanese were cooperating in an attempt to destroy HD.

Harley-Davidson applied for protection and received it in the form of tariffs for bikes over 700CC for a period, hence that batch of 700CC bikes for a bit in the 80's.

It provided HD the breathing space to sort their shit out and HD actually asked the government to pull the pin on the tariff support EARLY because they DID sort their shit out allowing them to compete against the Japanese on a level playing field.

If you want to talk dodgy and unfair......you should have a look at Japan's "tariffs".

I was part of a company that produced the highest quality best value semiconductor equipment in the world at the time. We couldn't crack the Japanese market no matter how hard we tried.

Our gear was more expensive than the Japanese competitor, but it was also light years more productive providing about 40% better bang for the buck.

We never got a single machine into Japan....not because of tariffs, but because of "tariffs" such as failing to meet obscure design/safety/and environmental standards that had no legitimate basis in fact. There wasn't a tariff, they simply built a paper wall to prevent superior value for dollar product from competing in the Japanese market......they were and are notorious for it.

The economic value of the tariff against Japan to provide HD with a thin layer of temporary protection was a drop in the bucket compared to what was happening in the opposite direction.

As as as "didn't help them from not going bust again." I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

-------------

And to post something at least somewhat related to the Norton topic.......I reckon the new Nortons look brilliant....would be proud to see one in my garage.....but the brand seems to have an aura of bad luck about it much like Indian over the years(particularly the last 10+)

So HD were an inferior product, that could'nt compete with a superior product that was imported? The british bike industry all over again. So HD went running to the gubbermint boohooing that the nasty lil slant eyed (remember pearl harbour, Pres') are sending cheap but better products to sell here, protect us please!! Sorry mate the Americans are the 'peak' of the 'consumerism lifestyle'.... and if you read HD's 2010 finacial statement? THEY are now viewing the export market as their 'saving grace'..... maybe everywhere else which has a bike industry to protect (EEC) should now put a tarrif on imported products..... oh hang on, HD superior to Triumph, BMW, Ducati, MV, Guzzi????

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too. YUP i'd have a 961 in the garage too.

[Paul in NZ]

So HD were an inferior product, that could'nt compete with a superior product that was imported? The british bike industry all over again. So HD went running to the gubbermint boohooing that the nasty lil slant eyed (remember pearl harbour, Pres') are sending cheap but better products to sell here, protect us please!! Sorry mate the Americans are the 'peak' of the 'consumerism lifestyle'.... and if you read HD's 2010 finacial statement? THEY are now viewing the export market as their 'saving grace'..... maybe everywhere else which has a bike industry to protect (EEC) should now put a tarrif on imported products..... oh hang on, HD superior to Triumph, BMW, Ducati, MV, Guzzi????

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too. YUP i'd have a 961 in the garage too.

Well yes and no... Norton was making some money but exactly how long they would have struggled on is a moot point. They paid a kings ransom for the rotary license's and never really translated that into commercial success...

The point the poster is making is that HD fully admitted they had issues but they were being killed by product dumping in their home market. ie Japanese bike were being sold below cost with the sole intent of destroying the company. No matter if thats true or not, it hardly matters now. Certainly Japan has mechanisms in place to prevent that... Governments do this kind of thing to preserve jobs in their own economy - its hardly a unique example.

The attempted government prop up of the british bike industry amounted to the same thing but of course it was far too late by then anyway.

Norton - while it was turned around by Dennis Poore was in a bad way and they backed the wrong horse with the rotary engine.

[avgas]

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too.

Using that theory so was Rolls Royce.

[Ocean1]

We never got a single machine into Japan....not because of tariffs, but because of "tariffs" such as failing to meet obscure design/safety/and environmental standards that had no legitimate basis in fact. There wasn't a tariff, they simply built a paper wall to prevent superior value for dollar product from competing in the Japanese market......they were and are notorious for it.

They're called national standards. Every larg economy has a whole slew of 'em, the primary function of which is to restrict trade.

The US itself was the first and probably remains the best exponent.

[avgas]

They're called national standards. Every larg economy has a whole slew of 'em, the primary function of which is to restrict trade.
The US itself was the first and probably remains the best exponent.

NZ wasn't bad at it either. Even now unless your priced cheaper than NZ - you can't get some products in here.
I recall south americans kiwifruit have to be sub-standard to get through the gates.

Likewise anyone tried Middle eastern premium lamb.........probably not in NZ...........
I also recall there being a massive hoohaaa when Hershey tried to make a big push into NZ.

But NZ govt doesn't usually disclose that kind of info.

[lakedaemonian]

NZ wasn't bad at it either. Even now unless your priced cheaper than NZ - you can't get some products in here.
I recall south americans kiwifruit have to be sub-standard to get through the gates.

Likewise anyone tried Middle eastern premium lamb.........probably not in NZ...........
I also recall there being a massive hoohaaa when Hershey tried to make a big push into NZ.

But NZ govt doesn't usually disclose that kind of info.

Yup....at least in the temporary case of HD nearly 30 years ago....it was pretty overt.

[lakedaemonian]

So HD were an inferior product, that could'nt compete with a superior product that was imported? The british bike industry all over again. So HD went running to the gubbermint boohooing that the nasty lil slant eyed (remember pearl harbour, Pres') are sending cheap but better products to sell here, protect us please!! Sorry mate the Americans are the 'peak' of the 'consumerism lifestyle'.... and if you read HD's 2010 finacial statement? THEY are now viewing the export market as their 'saving grace'..... maybe everywhere else which has a bike industry to protect (EEC) should now put a tarrif on imported products..... oh hang on, HD superior to Triumph, BMW, Ducati, MV, Guzzi????

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too. YUP i'd have a 961 in the garage too.

It's the 2012 financial year...you should try and catch up....a lot has changed since then....such as eliminating the risk from the motorcycle CDI insanity of a few years back.

International focus was HUGE at the recent Harley Dealer Meeting.....for the first time they've recognized the global market properly by bringing examples from Brazil, Russia, India, and China on stage..........BRIC anyone?

Since you're anti-HD and wish to see it sink you probably wouldn't believe the sales increases they are seeing in developing markets.

And in the US base dealer inventory hasn't been this low for 7-8 years. There are dealers angry about not being able to get enough stock(particularly Tourers and Dynas) like it's 2004 all over again.....but with far more commonsense.

So unfortunately, HD is not going to fall over as you apparently hope to see.

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Back to Norton.....Maybe Polaris will buy them up...they seem keen to build a portfolio of brands.

[Paul in NZ]

Back to Norton.....Maybe Polaris will buy them up...they seem keen to build a portfolio of brands.

I don't think I'd like to see that...

I reckon Triumph should buy them.... Build a sporty twin.....

[GrayWolf]

It's the 2012 financial year...you should try and catch up....a lot has changed since then....such as eliminating the risk from the motorcycle CDI insanity of a few years back.

International focus was HUGE at the recent Harley Dealer Meeting.....for the first time they've recognized the global market properly by bringing examples from Brazil, Russia, India, and China on stage..........BRIC anyone?

Since you're anti-HD and wish to see it sink you probably wouldn't believe the sales increases they are seeing in developing markets.

And in the US base dealer inventory hasn't been this low for 7-8 years. There are dealers angry about not being able to get enough stock(particularly Tourers and Dynas) like it's 2004 all over again.....but with far more commonsense.

So unfortunately, HD is not going to fall over as you apparently hope to see.

------

Back to Norton.....Maybe Polaris will buy them up...they seem keen to build a portfolio of brands.

Firstly I have no wish, or bother to see HD go down the plug. Secondly, my trade was/is a Toolmaker (UK). Basically this means I did City and Guilds, then did HNC (higher national certificate) in effect, when in was 'working' you could bring me the blueprints, materials leave them with me; and I could have made from raw material a complete engine. My gripe wth HD has always been (untill very recently) inferior engineering, that is charged for at a premium price. We can all cite Ducati, Guzzi from the 70's with shit electrics, paint, chrome etc, but mate? A Guzzi motor from the 70's was a FAR SUPERIOR product. I've ridden HD's from the 1970's when I started riding till the early 2000's. I saw the Evo from it's beginnings in the UK, Superior product? the then new Triumphs. I had a Moto Guzzi California 1100 new in the mid 90's.. funny thing was an American mag, voted the Cali' as the 'BEST HARLEY' of that year. yes it did have a few 'typical Guzzi issue's' but was far better than the bikes of even 10yrs before. Stopped, accelerated AND went round corners for 2/3 the price, out of the box. There's a guy at my work with a seriously quick tuned HD 2.0 litre I think, but he's spend both legs on it, and it has still blown up on him. Quicker than my bike? Fuck yes, but I know mine will hold together for 100,000km's plus. This is the same shit that was spewed when the Japs took out the remains of the Brit Industry,,,,, A Bonnie better than a 750/4 sohc? yah having an effin laugh mate, I can guarantee there will be more Nonda 750's in original un rebuilt condition on the road, than an equal number of same period Bonnie's. I watched friends/mates blow up Shovel's, I watched iron head's spill their guts over the years. As an admission the HD was never built with European motorway riding in mind back then, come to think of it, neither was a Bonnie (the only bike I know that would end up at the destination (sometimes) with a full tank of gas and weigh a lot lighter than it did on departure
What I am a 'hater' of is the arrogant asshole HOG members, HD riders who think the only 'bike' there could possibly be is a HD. "oh havent you seen the light yet" was a classic line I had thrown at me... the light? I do 20-30k a year every year, occasionally even a bit higher. I buy a bike to suit my requirements, every day ride, commuter, shopping, weekend jaunts, quick fang over the Taka's etc and be able to blat the length of either island in 'one hit'. Plus be able to withstand being parked out in the weather just about every day.... So no cruisers are not my 'thing' these days.. and I love my big inch V twins, hence the MT-01. I'd even look seriously at the new Breva 1200 4v sport Guzzi recently released, in a few yrs time.
There IS one HD I would own tomorrow, and its the one they stopped bringing in, the XR1200 sporty. THAT it the first HD I can say I consider a good package on the 'performance/handling' stakes.

[eliot-ness]

Well yes and no... Norton was making some money but exactly how long they would have struggled on is a moot point. They paid a kings ransom for the rotary license's and never really translated that into commercial success...

Norton - while it was turned around by Dennis Poore was in a bad way and they backed the wrong horse with the rotary engine.

Far from backing a wrong horse, the rotary engine, (not the bike) was a big money spinner. The air cooled engine was found to be the ideal power unit for light weight drones and huge numbers were supplied to the USAF for target towing, and remote observation duties. Unfortunately any profits made were plowed back in to trying to beat the Japanese bikes,and with the outdated methods and machinery in the UK at that time, they had no chance of success.

[lakedaemonian]

I don't think I'd like to see that...

I reckon Triumph should buy them.... Build a sporty twin.....

I'd agree.....I don't think having a brand you really value being placed in a "brand portfolio" for "synergies" is any way to create anything but the artificial.

Just my 0.02c