Norton 961 - The saga still unfolding

[lakedaemonian]

Firstly I have no wish, or bother to see HD go down the plug. Secondly, my trade was/is a Toolmaker (UK). Basically this means I did City and Guilds, then did HNC (higher national certificate) in effect, when in was 'working' you could bring me the blueprints, materials leave them with me; and I could have made from raw material a complete engine. My gripe wth HD has always been (untill very recently) inferior engineering, that is charged for at a premium price. We can all cite Ducati, Guzzi from the 70's with shit electrics, paint, chrome etc, but mate? A Guzzi motor from the 70's was a FAR SUPERIOR product. I've ridden HD's from the 1970's when I started riding till the early 2000's. I saw the Evo from it's beginnings in the UK, Superior product? the then new Triumphs. I had a Moto Guzzi California 1100 new in the mid 90's.. funny thing was an American mag, voted the Cali' as the 'BEST HARLEY' of that year. yes it did have a few 'typical Guzzi issue's' but was far better than the bikes of even 10yrs before. Stopped, accelerated AND went round corners for 2/3 the price, out of the box. There's a guy at my work with a seriously quick tuned HD 2.0 litre I think, but he's spend both legs on it, and it has still blown up on him. Quicker than my bike? Fuck yes, but I know mine will hold together for 100,000km's plus. This is the same shit that was spewed when the Japs took out the remains of the Brit Industry,,,,, A Bonnie better than a 750/4 sohc? yah having an effin laugh mate, I can guarantee there will be more Nonda 750's in original un rebuilt condition on the road, than an equal number of same period Bonnie's. I watched friends/mates blow up Shovel's, I watched iron head's spill their guts over the years. As an admission the HD was never built with European motorway riding in mind back then, come to think of it, neither was a Bonnie (the only bike I know that would end up at the destination (sometimes) with a full tank of gas and weigh a lot lighter than it did on departure
What I am a 'hater' of is the arrogant asshole HOG members, HD riders who think the only 'bike' there could possibly be is a HD. "oh havent you seen the light yet" was a classic line I had thrown at me... the light? I do 20-30k a year every year, occasionally even a bit higher. I buy a bike to suit my requirements, every day ride, commuter, shopping, weekend jaunts, quick fang over the Taka's etc and be able to blat the length of either island in 'one hit'. Plus be able to withstand being parked out in the weather just about every day.... So no cruisers are not my 'thing' these days.. and I love my big inch V twins, hence the MT-01. I'd even look seriously at the new Breva 1200 4v sport Guzzi recently released, in a few yrs time.
There IS one HD I would own tomorrow, and its the one they stopped bringing in, the XR1200 sporty. THAT it the first HD I can say I consider a good package on the 'performance/handling' stakes.

Haha! I reckon we have far more in common than initially thought.

I'm a fan of Guzzis too....they have heaps of genuine character, they handle, they stop, they have personality, they have performance.

Unfortunately, they never had proper businessmen(sorry business PEOPLE) running the show.

And their marketing was, and is, complete and utter rubbish.

I've had some significant dealings with Moto Guzzi over the years up until 2006.

For a period, little ole me(and a number of others) were actually involuntarily financing MG......thank god that got sorted out.....and that ended it for me.

No matter how much potential they have, they will never be anything near as iconic as HD because they have had morons runnings the show who run and hide when there is a problem, and they couldn't market/advertise their way out of a paper bag.

Harleys are NOT as capable as MGs(in many, but not ALL cases..tourers/XR1200 being a couple of examples) when it comes to NZ and some European roads.......but they don't have to be, because HDs marketing people have folks believing:

HD = FREEDOM

And unfortunately, that carries over to some poor elitist behavior in SOME HD riders.

More the exception than the norm I reckon....but I find it distasteful as well....and it typically comes from the newbies...not the folks who've been riding a while.

For the record...I had the first XR1200 in the country.....if it was a Guzzi, it would have gone on a little bit of a diet and had better sounding lighter pipes right from the factory.

And also for the record......AMF HDs are pretty rubbish.....although they seem to have a rabid following in Japan......but then the Japanese collection and crave some pretty bizarre stuff.

I reckon later EVOs, Twin Cams, and Sporty motors that aren't ridiculously abused, run without oil, and have it changed regularly are pretty bulletproof.

Even the belts are becoming pretty indestructible...I can't recall the last time I heard of a belt breaking.

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Anywho.....Back to Norton's......would love to see it continue.....especially in a format that is both affordable and relatively low volume/exclusive...which is a hard thing to do.

On that note......I'd love to see someone sort out the intellectual property on Brough Superior and come out with an affordable-ish semi-bespoke-ish gentleman tourer.

Last time I saw someone try that they did it with an old Harley motor...the horror.

[GrayWolf]

Haha! I reckon we have far more in common than initially thought.

I'm a fan of Guzzis too....they have heaps of genuine character, they handle, they stop, they have personality, they have performance.

Unfortunately, they never had proper businessmen(sorry business PEOPLE) running the show.

And their marketing was, and is, complete and utter rubbish.

I've had some significant dealings with Moto Guzzi over the years up until 2006.

For a period, little ole me(and a number of others) were actually involuntarily financing MG......thank god that got sorted out.....and that ended it for me.

No matter how much potential they have, they will never be anything near as iconic as HD because they have had morons runnings the show who run and hide when there is a problem, and they couldn't market/advertise their way out of a paper bag.

Harleys are NOT as capable as MGs(in many, but not ALL cases..tourers/XR1200 being a couple of examples) when it comes to NZ and some European roads.......but they don't have to be, because HDs marketing people have folks believing:

HD = FREEDOM

And unfortunately, that carries over to some poor elitist behavior in SOME HD riders.

More the exception than the norm I reckon....but I find it distasteful as well....and it typically comes from the newbies...not the folks who've been riding a while.

For the record...I had the first XR1200 in the country.....if it was a Guzzi, it would have gone on a little bit of a diet and had better sounding lighter pipes right from the factory.

And also for the record......AMF HDs are pretty rubbish.....although they seem to have a rabid following in Japan......but then the Japanese collection and crave some pretty bizarre stuff.

I reckon later EVOs, Twin Cams, and Sporty motors that aren't ridiculously abused, run without oil, and have it changed regularly are pretty bulletproof.

Even the belts are becoming pretty indestructible...I can't recall the last time I heard of a belt breaking.

-------

Anywho.....Back to Norton's......would love to see it continue.....especially in a format that is both affordable and relatively low volume/exclusive...which is a hard thing to do.

On that note......I'd love to see someone sort out the intellectual property on Brough Superior and come out with an affordable-ish semi-bespoke-ish gentleman tourer.

Last time I saw someone try that they did it with an old Harley motor...the horror.

last 'bespoke' Tourer i reckon was the Hesketh... just a shame they rushed it.... it had potential did that bike.

[Kickaha]

last 'bespoke' Tourer i reckon was the Hesketh... just a shame they rushed it.... it had potential did that bike.

They're still building them with a lot of upgrades

[ktm84mxc]

Who'd have thought that comment on Harley's history can be so debated ? If the Japs had stuck to the sport bike market and not built Harley clones it would never had happened, Harley has long tapped into the patriotic belief in buy American only.

[Paul in NZ]

Who'd have thought that comment on Harley's history can be so debated ? If the Japs had stuck to the sport bike market and not built Harley clones it would never had happened, Harley has long tapped into the patriotic belief in buy American only.

Which really is a bit of a laugh and HD themselves have no problem buying non USA made parts for their bikes...

FWIW in the era under discussion the 'Japs' made mostly UJM's and its these bikes that were robbing away HD's customer base... Pure sports bikes didn't really start until the mid 80's.... Faced with the choice between a Z1 or an AMF Sportster or Shovel in the mid 70's its a no brainer. Hardly shocking that they were nervous...

[lakedaemonian]

Which really is a bit of a laugh and HD themselves have no problem buying non USA made parts for their bikes...

FWIW in the era under discussion the 'Japs' made mostly UJM's and its these bikes that were robbing away HD's customer base... Pure sports bikes didn't really start until the mid 80's.... Faced with the choice between a Z1 or an AMF Sportster or Shovel in the mid 70's its a no brainer. Hardly shocking that they were nervous...

On that note.......when I see Jap Harley clones....even though they are quite capable and competent bikes....they will always be deemed clones and HD has little to fear from direct competition from Jap bikes.

But I have always thought that if say Honda came out with a flash new CBX that really delved deep into their own heritage rather than perceived as stealing another's then it could get interesting.

Imagine if Honda built a nutty new CBX and said they were only building 1000(the first year) they'd be hoovered up in seconds and lead to frenzy for open ordering the following year.

The Japs got some cool stuff in their own heritage, why they continue to clone the heritage of others is one of life's eternal questions.

Agreed...a choice between a Z1/CBX or a craptastic AMF Harley is the easiest choice in the world.

I ride Harleys, but the first photo of me on a bike is on my uncle's Honda in the 70's.

[Paul in NZ]

Agreed...a choice between a Z1/CBX or a craptastic AMF Harley is the easiest choice in the world.

I ride Harleys, but the first photo of me on a bike is on my uncle's Honda in the 70's.

Yes - and the choice between a decent big HD and a Virago is also pretty straight forward you would of thought... Personally I quite like the whole idea of there being new HD's in the world....

[BIG DOUG]

HMM my twin cam is up to 175 thousand kays and my xr has just ticked over 58 thou kays I personally don't give a fuck what people ride BUT the amount of shit thrown at harleys is unreal,if you don't like them thats fine, hell harleys fly by wire throttle setup never gives grief unlike other companys efforts.

[bluebird]

The ideal situation is to own a Harley and a Jap bike, they offer such different riding experiences, even the so called "copies" which of course they aren't they are "of a type" are so different to ride, the Jap manufacturers are so good at spotting the weaknesses of the HD's and creating hybrid designs like the Suzuki M109, half cruiser half sporty .

[Berries]

The ideal situation is to own a Harley and a Jap bike.

Is this the drugs thread or something?

[AllanB]

HD = freedom.

Marketing.

Like the bikes but shit-the-bed I can get the feeling of motorcycle freedom on a $500 crapped out Honda step-thru.

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

[BIG DOUG]

Shit have you ever ridden an M109 I have and it was not nice.

[Voltaire]

I probably won't ever own a new Norton but I'm happy enough riding an old BMW as a daily rider, and riding and spannering on my 40 year old Norton Commando. I had a modern Triumph Thruxton and a 900ssie but neither captured me the way my R90, 900SD and Combat do.
Funny how treads degenerate into HD slagging..... I'm not a fan but each to his own.

I can get the feeling of motorcycle freedom on a $500 crapped out Honda step-thru.

I find that with my $350 scooter.....but I miss the waving

[lakedaemonian]

HD = freedom.

Marketing.

Like the bikes but shit-the-bed I can get the feeling of motorcycle freedom on a $500 crapped out Honda step-thru.

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

Agreed.....the shaping of perceptions is a VERY powerful thing.

Just look at Coca-Cola.....the most valuable brand in the world......and it's just sugar water with a label.

[Edbear]

Shit have you ever ridden an M109 I have and it was not nice.

I have and it only took a few k's to understand it. At first i really didn't like anything about it. After that it was a blast! I loved it! Completely opposite to my C50T. The 109's are an aggressive sports bike in the cruiser mould and you need to grab them by the scruff of their necks and make them work.

The reward is rocket ship acceleration, fabulous brakes, smooth engine and handling within the limits of ground clearance, but anyone used to a cruiser would get the hang of it pretty quick and find cornering a plus on them.