Gull using Butane

[oneofsix]

Anybody else not aware that Gull has been bulking up its petrol with butane? The brief article, all about taxes, doesn't give any idea of the affects of butane on the petrol or more importantly the engine but if you do use Gull petrol you might want to investigate.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...-over-tax-rate

butane, a form of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG).

Customs staff discovered that Australian-owned Gull was adding up to 5 per cent butane to its petrol.

While fuel companies are required to disclose to motorists if fuel contains more than 1 per cent ethanol, no such condition is required for butane

[brendonjw]

My cousin is a Boat engine mechanic, most of the engines that hes worked on and have been clogged or fouled have been using Gull petrol (he asks the owners what they have been using in them) Reckons he wouldn't touch the stuff after seeing what it does

[Old Steve]

Anybody else not aware that Gull has been bulking up its petrol with butane? The brief article, all about taxes, doesn't give any idea of the affects of butane on the petrol or more importantly the engine but if you do use Gull petrol you might want to investigate.

So what's your problem? All petrol has butane in it. If it didn't you wouldn't be able to start your engine.

The MOE specs for petrol contain a requirement for Reid Vapour Pressure which is a measure of how the petrol evaporates, to meet this the petrol must have a considerable "light" end (or "front" end) and butane is added or is present to provide this evaporation characteristic.

Petrol is probably best considered as three components. The "light" end provides easy evaporation on start up. Then there is a middle component which usually has an amount of naptha in it (naptha is a mix of hydrocarbons with chain lengths usually between 5 and 12 - a five chain hydrocarbon is pentane, only one carbon longer than butane), and the "top" end is the heavier product which provides the power. Of course petrol is comprised of many many more components than just three, but whatever hydrocarbon molecules are there could best be broken down into those three generic descriptions.

I don't know where Gull sources it's petrol from. If from a warmer country then there could be a need to add butane to achieve the evaporation characteristics required in NZ, but they would probably contract that their petrol met NZ MOE specification and that would probably require the refinery to add butane to it. The petrol from the other fuel companies has butane in it, both to meet the evaporation characteristics required and to use up excess butane which is a byproduct of fuel distillation.

When in doubt, check Wikipedia:

The most common use of butane is as lighter fuel for a common lighter or butane torch. Butane gas is sold bottled as a fuel for cooking and camping. When blended with propane and other hydrocarbons, it is referred to commercially as LPG, for liquified petroleum gas. It is also used as a petrol component, as a feedstock for the production of base petrochemicals in steam cracking, as fuel for cigarette lighters and as a propellant in aerosol sprays such as deodorants.

If, and I reiterate if, there is any problem with Gull petrol in marine applications then it might (and I reiterate might) be the presence of ethanol in a water laden environment.

[ducatilover]

So what's your problem? All petrol has butane in it. If it didn't you wouldn't be able to start your engine.

The MOE specs for petrol contain a requirement for Reid Vapour Pressure which is a measure of how the petrol evaporates, to meet this the petrol must have a considerable "light" end (or "front" end) and butane is added or is present to provide this evaporation characteristic.

Petrol is probably best considered as three components. The "light" end provides easy evaporation on start up. Then there is a middle component which usually has an amount of naptha in it (naptha is a mix of hydrocarbons with chain lengths usually between 5 and 12 - a five chain hydrocarbon is pentane, only one carbon longer than butane), and the "top" end is the heavier product which provides the power. Of course petrol is comprised of many many more components than just three, but whatever hydrocarbon molecules are there could best be broken down into those three generic descriptions.

I don't know where Gull sources it's petrol from. If from a warmer country then there could be a need to add butane to achieve the evaporation characteristics required in NZ, but they would probably contract that their petrol met NZ MOE specification and that would probably require the refinery to add butane to it. The petrol from the other fuel companies has butane in it, both to meet the evaporation characteristics required and to use up excess butane which is a byproduct of fuel distillation.

When in doubt, check Wikipedia:




If, and I reiterate if, there is any problem with Gull petrol in marine applications then it might (and I reiterate might) be the presence of ethanol in a water laden environment.

Great post thanks Old Steve, very informative

[sootie]

Hi there,
I understand that Gull buy their product on the open market but that it usually comes from a refinery in Singapore or Indonesia (much warmer countries as someone suggested).

I used to prefer Gull fuels, but about a year ago I had a big problem with it. I joined a weekend tour down to New plymouth & filled up with Gull before I left. Mine is an older carburetted bike which usually gives little trouble, but it started running really badly, and was eating more fuel than usual. I nearly turned back for home, but it kept running, and I did keep up with everyone.

I refuelled in New Plymouth, and after that the bike ran perfectly. My conclusion was that Gull had put their 10% ethanol mix in to the 91 octane tank at the last station fill up, probably by mistake. My bike really disliked the ethanol big time! Since then I have never used Gull fuel in case the same thing happens again. Up until this trip, I had prefered it.

FYI ... sootie

[sinfull]

It's the ethanol (or is that Methanol ?) they add to the fuel that's the problem, ya can't avoid it in some cases but i'd rather not use it !

Mobil 91 is another that has ethanol in it, bet ya didn't know that either !
I have to use slightly higher octane now my engine is higher comp. so you'll always find me at a BP somewhere !

[Gremlin]

Generally speaking, it's the ethanol that's the problem. A bike not designed to run on it will usually have the fuel lines turned to mush. It also absorbs water, which has it's own set of problems.

Didn't know Mobil 91 had ethanol in it, but then it's another to stay clear of I guess...

[BigAl]

Any premium brands other than Gull with an ethanol mix?

[Lozza2442]

http://z.co.nz/about-z/who-is-z-energy/

I go to Z energy. NZ owned, and they're injecting money into communities and the NZ Super.
http://z.co.nz/about-z/who-is-z-ener...neighbourhood/

"A couple of years ago, New Zealand company Infratil Limited and the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation got together and bought Shell's New Zealand downstream business."

Here's their specs for their premium fuel - http://z.co.nz/motorists/fuels/premium-fuel/

My $0.02....

[oneofsix]

Generally speaking, it's the ethanol that's the problem. A bike not designed to run on it will usually have the fuel lines turned to mush. It also absorbs water, which has it's own set of problems.

Didn't know Mobil 91 had ethanol in it, but then it's another to stay clear of I guess...

Not all Mobil 91 contains ethanol and according to the article they have to declare when it does. That said I still avoid the Mobil Synergy 1000, if they have to re-brand petrol into meaningless gobly gook names what are they trying to hide?

[oneofsix]

If, and I reiterate if, there is any problem with Gull petrol in marine applications then it might (and I reiterate might) be the presence of ethanol in a water laden environment.

That they are not informing their customers and giving them the change to discuss, research or make an informed decision. It is a gas, whilst it might come as part of petrol normally if you add it to already refined petrol how well does it stay? Water contains oxygen but adding oxygen into water the added oxygen will eventually work its way out. Whilst your research suggest there is no problem but i would rather have people know that it was there in the first place and has the wiki article been biased by the companies that are adding it.

After a re-read of Old Steve's post it appears the only issue is that they land the petrol, add the butane increasing the volume but paying a lower tax on the butane, and then sell it the full volume to the customer cheaper, or do they pocket the difference and that they weren't telling their customers. But then again what were BP asking about then?

[Maha]

Hi there,
I understand that Gull buy their product on the open market but that it usually comes from a refinery in Singapore or Indonesia (much warmer countries as someone suggested).

I used to prefer Gull fuels, but about a year ago I had a big problem with it. I joined a weekend tour down to New plymouth & filled up with Gull before I left. Mine is an older carburetted bike which usually gives little trouble, but it started running really badly, and was eating more fuel than usual. I nearly turned back for home, but it kept running, and I did keep up with everyone.

I refuelled in New Plymouth, and after that the bike ran perfectly. My conclusion was that Gull had put their 10% methanol mix in to the 91 octane tank at the last station fill up, probably by mistake. My bike really disliked the methanol big time! Since then I have never used Gull fuel in case the same thing happens again. Up until this trip, I had prefered it.

FYI ... sootie

...and I smells like Rotorua on very damp day....(Gull Gs I mean)
You know what fuel has been pumped into a vehicle when you are behind it.

[Old Steve]

it appears the only issue is that they land the petrol, add the butane increasing the volume but paying a lower tax on the butane, and then sell it the full volume to the customer cheaper, or do they pocket the difference and that they weren't telling their customers.

Um, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. The fuel companies pay a single duty rate on what they sell. So if Gull have butane added to their petrol then they will be paying one single duty on all of the petrol, butane included. Pedantically it is a duty and not a tax, therefore it can be taxed by the addition of GST so you don't actually have a tax on a tax but are paying a tax on a duty.

What Gull pay is a lower duty on the ethanol they blend into their petrol locally (as is allowed by the MOE specifications), this is a Government incentive to have locally produced fuel included in the market. But don't confuse the butane with the ethanol.

While butane is a liquid, albeit a low boiling point one, you can't just store it and pour it into the petrol. So they won't be adding the butane to the petrol they land here at their terminal in Mt Maunganui. It'll have to be added at the refinery as part of the overall formulation of the fuel. And being a hydrocarbon too, butane is miscible with other hydrocarbons so does tend to stay in suspension in the finished product.

[oneofsix]

Um, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. The fuel companies pay a single duty rate on what they sell. So if Gull have butane added to their petrol then they will be paying one single duty on all of the petrol, butane included. Pedantically it is a duty and not a tax, therefore it can be taxed by the addition of GST so you don't actually have a tax on a tax but are paying a tax on a duty.

What Gull pay is a lower duty on the ethanol they blend into their petrol locally (as is allowed by the MOE specifications), this is a Government incentive to have locally produced fuel included in the market. But don't confuse the butane with the ethanol.

While butane is a liquid, albeit a low boiling point one, you can't just store it and pour it into the petrol. So they won't be adding the butane to the petrol they land here at their terminal in Mt Maunganui. It'll have to be added at the refinery as part of the overall formulation of the fuel. And being a hydrocarbon too, butane is miscible with other hydrocarbons so does tend to stay in suspension in the finished product.

You may be correct but the article and the court cases are around Gull paying less duty due to their adding the butane which attracts a lower rate. I presume this is an import duty as it is customs that has been fighting Gull in court, if it was a tax then I would have expected it to be the IRD.

I don't know shit about butane in petrol etc I just posted it in case it did affect anyone. There was no mention in the article of Gull using ethanol only that if a petrol supplier did they had to declare it but that they don't have to declare the butane, something that the AA want changed.

[steve_t]

Gull could be gaining a tax advantage of around 1 or 2 cents per litre... hmmm... Gull sells their petrol for up to 20c a litre cheaper than their competitors. Is NZ Customs about to be privatised or something?