Spring's here, time to die

[leopardskin]

What disappoints me most is that motorcyclists, by and large, prefer to be patted on the head and told "There, there, you did well to almost avoid the crash" instead of "wake the fuck up and make a better effort next time".

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos

[rastuscat]

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos

Freud theorized on this. We have a view of ourself, and our subconscious adapts our perceptions of our reality to justify our actions in terms of our self image. It's subconscious self protection.

Like, I say I'm a fecking good rider. I'm so shit hot I am on KB. Then I fall off on a bend coz I'm riding like a knob, then my identity tells me that it is the road, the brakes, the weather, some other thing, but never my own fault. Coz I'm a fecking good rider.

Thing is, until I twig that I was riding like a knob, nothing will change. Only I can adjust my knobbish riding, so recognising it is the main step.

Recognising our deficiencies is the awesome-est way to open the door to improvement.

But not many of us do it. Coz we is knobz.

[oneofsix]

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos

Freud theorized on this. We have a view of ourself, and our subconscious adapts our perceptions of our reality to justify our actions in terms of our self image. It's subconscious self protection.

Like, I say I'm a fecking good rider. I'm so shit hot I am on KB. Then I fall off on a bend coz I'm riding like a knob, then my identity tells me that it is the road, the brakes, the weather, some other thing, but never my own fault. Coz I'm a fecking good rider.

Thing is, until I twig that I was riding like a knob, nothing will change. Only I can adjust my knobbish riding, so recognising it is the main step.

Recognising our deficiencies is the awesome-est way to open the door to improvement.

But not many of us do it. Coz we is knobz.

Both very wise and right to a point. The lovely thing about motorcycling and KB in particular is there are plenty of people to tell you you were a knob, some do it in a way you will listen to eventually (at first you will probably deny it but you heard them so it does get in to quote Mrs Marsh) and others just get your back up so you write them off as knobz.
Now if the same was true of car drivers wouldn't it be wonderful but with car drivers, unless you are a boy racer, you will be treated as a "normal" driver and therefore OK. Yeah on KB we know normal driver means knob but they don't. The shame is they have over a tonne of metal, glass and plastic to throw at us and all we do is make a small dent in one of their panels.
It doesn't matter how will our extra sensory perception is work their are so many knobz in cars out there that eventually one will get a rider in spite of their best efforts. Don't take this as an excuse to relax cause that just raises the chance of being whacked. Stay as alert as you can and "stay save out there" (Hill St Blues)

[MrKiwi]

All good advice. As riders we need to underestimate our riding capabilities, underestimate the abilities of other road users and stay as vigilant as possible. Always.

BUT, and this is what is getting me about the crashes in Taranaki this weekend. There are occasions that even if you do that you might just be in the wrong place at the wrong time with no options left no matter how good at perceiving the road conditions and surrounding threats. To imply, as some do on KB, that a good rider will always be able to detect and avoid a life threatening situation is pure unmitigated rubbish. End of story. Same goes for car drivers. We should aim to make it always happen, but always being able to achieve the aim is a different matter.

The previous two road safety strategies (to the current safer journeys strategy) had as the basis of their philosophical approach that at the end of the day if an accident happened it was the fault of the driver/rider. However, the current strategy recognises recent research findings that humans are not perfect and no matter how good our training and reaction times, we can and do make mistakes. Therefore our roading and safety system should be built on the basis that if something goes wrong it should be more forgiving. That is difficult to achieve for motorcyclists.

Hence, be as vigilant of humanly possible, underestimate our own skills as riders and underestimate the skills of other road users is our lot.

[Genestho]

Good question. The only info (stats etc) I've ever found was on the NZ Police site. There's no actual report on any specific incident that I could see though: https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...-2011-2015.pdf

These crash investigation reports are given to the families involved, the coroners and other relevant parties. They contain personal information, witness statements, photos, specific crash details, scene investigation, expert analysis, calculations, legal status of vehicles, vehicle inspectors report, actually not pleasant, at all.

So specific crash reports are not out there for public access, unless the family see fit to release them in "public interest".

Edit: After all legalities are dealt with first.

[Ocean1]

No, I was quite serious.

Then you’re more full of it than I’d previously given you credit for.

I don't see it as a gamble.

No?

when I go for a ride, I'm consciously backing myself to stay in one piece.

Sure sounds like it.

Unless by backing yourself you mean having done something significant or extraordinary to improve your chances of avoiding an incident.

If so then how’s that worked out, dude? what’s your batting average?

People who are invested in their self-image as a motorcyclist and who stubbornly ignore the fact that they suck at it - those people tend to die.

And, given that above performance, how do you see yourself in terms of your ability to avoid crashes? Above average?

Listen, dude, we’ve all got our takes on how shit works, some are more qualified to hold those views than others, but leave it. What I find offensive is the disrespect you show the dead. Or even just the slightly bruised. I shouldn’t have to explain why, sufficient to say that if I had known any of the recently departed well I’d probably be seeking some sort of explanation for it.

Enough.

[jrandom]

I'm upset.

I hear ya. I'm not looking to create negative emotions in people just for the sake of it. Peace out.

[steve_t]

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos

Freud theorized on this....

"Super-ego" well, not really but it sounds like it fits

[James Deuce]

I hear ya. I'm not looking to create negative emotions in people just for the sake of it. Peace out.

Bullshit. This is the normal wriggle you do when you've got your jollies.

[MrKiwi]

...
Listen, dude, we’ve all got our takes on how shit works, some are more qualified to hold those views than others, but leave it. What I find offensive is the disrespect you show the dead. Or even just the slightly bruised. I shouldn’t have to explain why, sufficient to say that if I had known any of the recently departed well I’d probably be seeking some sort of explanation for it.

Enough.

Precisely, well said...

[Zedder]

These crash investigation reports are given to the families involved, the coroners and other relevant parties. They contain personal information, witness statements, photos, specific crash details, scene investigation, expert analysis, calculations, legal status of vehicles, vehicle inspectors report, actually not pleasant, at all.

So specific crash reports are not out there for public access, unless the family see fit to release them in "public interest".

Edit: After all legalities are dealt with first.

Thanks. I fully understand about unpleasant details and concern for the families but it's interesting that the Civil Aviation Authority, on the other hand, allows free access to air accident reports (with irrelevant info deleted of course) in the interests of education. That's the point Newbould and I were making, it's about learning from the incident.

[jrandom]

Bullshit. This is the normal wriggle you do when you've got your jollies.

No, it's the wriggle I do when people start responding emotionally rather than addressing the meat of the issue.

I prefer to save my managing-other-people's-emotions-for-them communication filtering skills (I do have those skills, it's just that they take a lot of effort to use) for the missus. The likes of you and Ocean1 just get the raw thought-stuff straight up via my keyboard. If it happens to piss you off, I can just shrug and ignore it - I don't need you for sex later in the evening.

[Genestho]

Thanks. I fully understand about unpleasant details and concern for the families but it's interesting that the Civil Aviation Authority, on the other hand, allows free access to air accident reports (with irrelevant info deleted of course) in the interests of education. That's the point Newbould and I were making, it's about learning from the incident.

I don't know what's specifically in a civil aviation report whether the specific crash data etc is there or whether it is more like a coroner report which becomes more of an overview of the incident and crash with recommendations attached, coroners reports are made public so, that bit there I know is similar.

Perhaps the level of detail and private information is the difference, in what's made public.

[arcane12]

I'm probably doing a stupid thing chiming in on a heated debate over a topic like this but here goes. (call me stupid, I dares ya!)

I think what Random is trying to say (my opinion of what I am reading) is that when he is out on a bike he feels he has the skills to keep himself safe and out of danger, so it's not a gamble (not a 50/50 flip), but a solid backing of good odds. Yes, there is the chance of something happenning, but there is in a car. Or going for a walk. At some point you have to say - I understand the risk and accept it. If a rider does not have the skill, and/or physical ability, then perhaps riding is not for him.

On the other hand it is a sensitive issue and could have perhaps been handled a little better. I don't know if I could have done that while still bringing to light an important safety concern, and spark a good healthy debate about something that should be important to all riders, and all transport users.

Now, who else can I piss off? I could start disrespecting peoples mothers? You know, 'yo momma so...', nah I got nothing.

I wanted to stay silent, but what with the news recently, I feel this is a topic that can't be swept under the rug.

[gloplg]

it's about learning from the incident.

+ one. Before I become a statistic.