Spring's here, time to die

[Ocean1]

There's no telling some though mate. Pity I couldn't upload my biff from Wangas as an example.

When was that Pete?

And to be honest I'd still prefer to scrub off as much velocity as possible first, but it saved me a pair of broken legs once.

[Crasherfromwayback]

When was that Pete?

And to be honest I'd still prefer to scrub off as much velocity as possible first,

2005. Wasn't pretty. But the best outcome I'm sure.

Me too.

[onearmedbandit]

non ABS stopping faster than ABS - not likely!

You're taking the piss right?

[p.dath]

On tarmac I don't believe that. Not even top class racers. Show me the evidence and I'll change my mind.

If I was buying a new bike, I would buy a bike with ABS if offered.

However ABS is not going to deliver the best result every time. It is a rider aid. I will give you an example. I help organise something called NASS, which is a free learner skills course. I have enlisted the assstance of the local Police motorcycle highyway patrol, and they visit from time to time.

Last year when we were practising brake and escape, and had an imaginary "dead man" line, I think only two riders road over it - and one of them was one of the Police riders. Let me be the first to say the Police rider was an extremely skilled rider. It was not a skill issue. He was the most skiled rider in the whole group by a long way. I would back him 100%.

His comment at the time was that his tyres were cold, and his ABS had engaged (which it clearly did for those watching). The result is that the BMW was releasing the tyres a lot more than it needed to, and the bike took considerable longer to reduce it's speed than pretty much any other bike (which is why he overshot the dead man line). The Police riders use BMW's, so you can assume that the ABS was a "premium" system. He said the ABS is fine on warmer tyres, that it just didn't handle cold tyres very well.

ABS on motorbikes is not like ABS on cars. In a car all you have to know is to slam your foot down hard on the brake and it does everything else. ABS on motorcycles is really only safe to use on warm tyres and when you are upright and travelling in a straight line. And I still wouldn't just slam on the brake on an ABS motorcycle, I would still progressively brake.

So while I prefer ABS - you can't make a blanket statement and say that ABS is always better and will get you out of jail. It is a rider assistance technology to be used to help, and "assists" you if you get your braking wrong and lock a tyre up. A skilled rider who doesn't get the ABS to engage is probably going to be safer than the rider who gets a full ABS interactaction.

And yes I will agree that ABS should be able to pull up a bike in a shorter distance if it worked like the systems in cars. I'm not convinced that motorcycle ABS has reached this point yet due to the extra complexities of riding a motorcycle (but I do believe the point in time is close). But it is obvious that if it does reliabily take a tyre to the point of being just before constant slip that it should out perform a real rider.

[Fatjim]

Well, they'll be a time when every road bike will have ABS as standard, and you won't be able to remove it.

Then the decision will be whether you buy a bike that allows you to turn it off or not.

[Banditbandit]

If you want to drop the bike, why would you lock the wheels and go down with the bike? I dont fancy sliding with the bike, so the argument for bikes without abs making dropping them easier doesnt make sense to me.

Locking the wheels is the best move to start to drop ... and sliding with the bike is both more dangerous and less likely to stop you in time ... You let the bike go when you go down ..

Trust the voices of experience, getting off a bike is best done with the rear wheel locked up to pitch it sideways. Doing it 'on the fly' results in landing akwardly, on head/shoulder/hands/knees. Stepping the rear out lands bum first, sets up for easy pushing away the bike, and all general goodness comparitively.

Yes - my suggestion of just letting go the bars and pushing with your feet was a joke ... gauranteed to land you awkwardly and tumble you down the road rather than sliding.

ABS decreases total braking force. Does that compute?

No. I know it seems counter-intuative, but maximum braking is just before the wheels lock up ... not with the wheels locked up (by then you've lost some braking force ...) ABS, supposedly, helps to maintain the wheels at just before lock up ..

Not even the layman. As has been proven time and time again...abs will stop you in a shorter space of time unless you're a braking God. Even then sometimes!

Yes - because ABS maintains the wheels at just before lock up ..

Really?

Seems fucked up to me, I'll have to test ABS versus non personally before I believe it, and I'm certainly no braking god.

Yes - it does seem fucked up - but it is true ... it's just counter-intuative.

Well with the amount of time I've spent on mine, I'd probly want to slow her down and then jump in front to cushion the blow

I had a freind who did just that - wrapped himelf around he tank to save his paint job ... he's still alive ..

It may be that the ditching theory is based around the non-linear (wrt distance) deceleration, on or off the bike in the last 5m you're going to drop a lot more speed than the preceding 5m, so it might look like people slow down quicker once they have slowed enough to bail out, but in fact they would have stopped even sooner had they stayed on.

Hmm ... maybe ... I'd think it's more about old Newton's Laws of Motion i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration ...

In this case the amount of force being applied to a human body by friction (big friction area)as it slides down the road, combined with the minimum mass of a human body means deceleration (negative acceleration) would be quite high.

The amount of force applied through the tyres of a motorcycle (small friction area) OR the friction of the bike sliding down the road, combined with the mass of the bike plus the rider would mean that the deceleration (negative aceleration) would be much higher ...

Physics say I'll take my chances sliding down the road ... (And in all my sliding accidents I've stopped way before the bike has ...)

the road is not a race track so I would be riding differently!

Yeah ... but that just means there are no run off areas, no flag marchaslls and no ambos .. so look after yourself out there - there's no-one else there to do it ..

[Drew]

ABS does not maintain braking force, at just before the point of type lock up.

[Crasherfromwayback]

ABS does not maintain braking force, at just before the point of type lock up.

At just before tyre/wheel lock up it does. Once locked up even every so slightly no...

[Drew]

The ABS system does not keep the braking force lower than lock up point. It releases the brakes after lock up occurs, and then pulses on and off to keep from locking up for any length of time.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The ABS system does not keep the braking force lower than lock up point. It releases the brakes after lock up occurs, and then pulses on and off to keep from locking up for any length of time.

I know....

[ellipsis]

the road is not a race track so I would be riding differently!

...I wish that that were true for a larger percentage of the road users in this country...

[bogan]

ABS does not maintain braking force, at just before the point of type lock up.

Don't confuse car ABS with bike ABS, as far as I'm aware bike ABS is a lot harder to do because that is exactly what they try and get it to do.

[sinfull]

The ABS system does not keep the braking force lower than lock up point. It releases the brakes after lock up occurs, and then pulses on and off to keep from locking up for any length of time.

I want to fit it to my harley hehehe

Will it save me pumping the lever to get them to work at all ?

Actually i think i'd like my brake lights to work also !

And a new front wheel (lots of rust in there now) oh oh oh and a mid glide F/end (the new bars make it look skinny)

Bring on Santa !!!!

[nosebleed]

... It was not a skill issue. He was the most skiled rider in the whole group by a long way. I would back him 100%.

His comment at the time was that his tyres were cold, and his ABS had engaged (which it clearly did for those watching). The result is that the BMW was releasing the tyres a lot more than it needed to, and the bike took considerable longer to reduce it's speed than pretty much any other bike (which is why he overshot the dead man line). The Police riders use BMW's, so you can assume that the ABS was a "premium" system. He said the ABS is fine on warmer tyres, that it just didn't handle cold tyres very well.
...

Actually it is a skill issue

I would expect to read about such a "failure" from a rider who only takes his Beemer out on sunny Sunday's, not from someone who rides this bike full-time during his working day.
He should know his bike well enough to know how it behaves when the tyres are cold, and judged his stopping distance accordingly.

In your story learner riders with little skill or road craft were able to make the judgment on their bikes and therefore demonstrated greater skill.

[chasio]

Assuming that rear wheel lock-ups are generally easier to save if accidental and are desirable in some circumstances... Would there be a case for bike ABS you could configure so that it only acts on the front wheel? I'd probably run that when communtering, for example.

I think I'd probably be willing to spring extra for ABS with 3 modes:

1) On & linked (may as well go the whole hog)
2) Front only
3) Off

And maybe (4) On independently - for those who don't want linked. Maybe not worth the effort.

But for now I'll just keep on modulating with my internal ECU...