Tazers

[Lou Girardin]

So we'll go with "less", then.

"Rogue" some might be but stupid they are not (not if they've managed to stay on the job) so I doubt many of the rogue cops would fire a couple of barbs into a cuffed victim.

They wouldn't pepper spray a cuffed man in front of TV cameras either.
Maybe the bosses should worry more about IQ than running 2.4 km.

[Patrick]

1% is around 70 rogue cops. I think that's a tad high for a professional Police force.

BTW. The woman being tasered was on her cellphone. I guess less than instant obedience warrants being tasered in some peoples minds. Especially some cops minds.

More like 0.1%, and all 7 of of em up on charges as we speak.

Less than instant??? NOt in this case though was it. How many times did they yell at her to comply and how many warnings were yelled? Just where was her other hand? "PERHAPS" she was reaching for that gun, as they so often do in the States...and so many cops widows can confirm...

Fry her arse... and they did... she is alive and well and I'm guessing she won't try that again, I guess.

[spudchucka]

That's the balancing act. And that's why all the negative actions by some of your colleagues are tipping the scales against you.

Not to the point that good cops should be unnecessarily put into harms way, I won't accept that.

[spudchucka]

1% is around 70 rogue cops. I think that's a tad high for a professional Police force.

BTW. The woman being tasered was on her cellphone. I guess less than instant obedience warrants being tasered in some peoples minds. Especially some cops minds.

I've seen several cell phone guns that you wouldn't want pointed at you, most of them out of the US.

[Wolf]

I've seen several cell phone guns that you wouldn't want pointed at you, most of them out of the US.

If I look hard enough on my hard drive, I could supply video footage of one.

Besides, one hand on the cellphone, fuck knows what the other one is going for.

I recommend that everyone read The Saturday night special,: And other guns with which Americans won the West, protected bootleg franchises, slew wildlife, robbed countless banks, shot ... with the debate over continuing same by Robert Sherrill.

It's an old book (1973) but if nothing else it might give people an idea of the level of craziness with which US cops have to contend - if two women can have a shoot-out over a parking space, then blowing away a cop to avoid a ticket seems positively "sensible" by comparison. It's a delightful essay on the craziness on both sides of the law.

Add to those who have no sense of proportion (the use of lethal force to avoid a ticket): the number of wanted felons who might turn up anywhere, those who "just can't afford" to get another conviction, those that just have a grudge with the cops, the ones that got their hand slapped away the previous night, the actual psychotics, the drug users and those who have reasons not to want the cops poking their noses into the car, and you have a lot of potential for the cops to come under fire for something as simple as a routine check or telling the person they were speeding or the brake lights are not working.

I certainly hope New Zealand never gets to the level of insanity described in the above book to warrant the measures that the US cops have had to take. I don't think we will because I don't think NZ Govt would allow the advertising of "legal" non-functional GP machineguns (because the firing pins had been removed) followed immediately by an advertisement for firing pins for precisely that model of GPMG. Or advertising mortars as "ideal for target shooting or back yard plinking" (and "folds away neatly to fit in trunk of car").

As we don't sell weapons over the counter to any bugger that walks in off the street and asks for one like they do in some US states, we're not likely to get the number of armed mental cases they get over there.

And just because the cops in the US felt the need to tase that woman, it does not mean our own cops will behave the same way. Bear in mind that the drill carried out by those cops evolved from approaching with care, challenging and then, if compliance is not forthcoming, drawing a loaded pistol with the knowledge that they may have to shoot the person in the vehicle. Nowadays some draw a less-than-lethal weapon (not all US cops are equipped with tasers and some have to fall back on the trusty firearm).

Do our cops currently approach vehicles in that fashion? No.

I've been approached by a large number of cops and not one has drawn a gun if I've been slow to respond. They haven't even felt the need to insist I keep my hands visible.

I know a lot of cops carry firearms, I know they also visibly carry pepper spray and they've carried batons for years. Why, if they have not previously behaved in a manner akin to the US Police, would they do so upon being issued with tasers?

Seriously, the potential has been there for years for them to approach vehicles with drawn pistols or pepper spray or to unship the baton at the slightest hint of resistance but they have not done so because that is not the way police approach people in New Zealand. Where is the evidence that the introduction of tasers will significantly alter police procedure?

The taser is just a weapon - and a less harmful one than a Glock, at that. The cops that will be using them are the same cops that have for years had access to substantial clubs, pepper spray and potentially lethal firearms.

No weapon is dangerous in and of itself - it is the person that wields it that is the issue. If anyone has issues with the cops having tasers, then perhaps they should have issue with the cops having access to pepper spray, firearms, batons and solid shoes.

Then they can bitch and whinge when they're being beaten senseless by some thug and the cops won't turn up because they are not equipped to deal with a thug wielding a baseball bat.

[Ixion]

,, If anyone has issues with the cops having tasers, then perhaps they should have issue with the cops having access to pepper spray, firearms [snip].

,,.

I do. The whole point of the police force introduced by Sir Robert Peel was that it was an UNARMED force. Once you issue a police force with guns, it is no longer a police force, it is military.

The only justification that has been put forward for the Taser is that it is more "moderate" than a gun. But that presupposes a valid case for an armed "police" force. Which is a major departure from the traditional British/kiwi concept of the police.

If NZ needs a paramilitary force then it should be instituted as such, separate from the police and subject to the same restrictions as the army , regarding assistance of the civil power. An armed "police" force is not a civil power it is a military one.

And if the rule of law has so far collapsed that military force (ie troops armed with guns or Tasers) is needed to maintain order, then a formal state of martial law should be declared, like in Timor (I would have no problems with such a declaration in some parts of Auckland) .

If we have as yet no need of military power in the streets , then we have no need of an armed police, whether that be armed with guns or Tasers.

I am surprised incidentally that no one has made the point of the inevitable reaction of the criminals. If cops are routinely "packing" then there is all the more reason for criminals to do the same. And if they cannot easily access Tasers, they can certainly access guns. So arming the police with Tasers must necessarily increase the likelihood of a taser armed police officer being confronted by a criminal armed, in like manner , with a gun.

[scumdog]

I do. The whole point of the police force introduced by Sir Robert Peel was that it was an UNARMED force. Once you issue a police force with guns, it is no longer a police force, it is military..

In Robert Peels day cops were less likely to be confronted by 'P' junkies, pump-action shotgun wielders or many of the other malaise of the modern world.

Society has taken quite a different track since those days - and not for the better.

And as for the argument that if the cops carry guns then so will the criminals?
The crims already do - just ask any cop about the sawn-offs, pistols etc located during searches, MOST of the time luckily they don't get used.

BTW:You know it's a white-trash loser broken-arsed household when they only have a cross-bow with a scope (apologies to our esteemed White Trash here).

[Wolf]

Years ago, when I was still in my teens, the cops had a display of weapons they had seized, one of which was a home-made pistol they had confiscated from a 14-year-old.

The crims are already "packing" and they're using their weapons on civilians as well - stabbing people in the throat for saying "what the fuck are you doing to my bike?", brandishing weapons at store owners and bank staff more frequently now and invading people's homes armed with shotguns, shooting the husband in the foot and threatening the family - including an infant - with said shotgun.

I believe we are in need of a "paramilitary" force to counter the level of violence in crime these days.

Personally, I'd happily set the NZ army to doing a lot of the grunt work that ties up police time to free up the sworn officers to do other things - ACC wants people waving lasers around? Get the army to do that and leave the police to investigate burglaries. Put the army out on traffic duty and get a few army lads as extra bods when going to domestics and brawls - I'm sure they can subdue a few thugs and take down basic statements.

Question: did the police in Peel's day carry truncheons? If so, they were an armed force. Armed with a potentially lethal weapon.

[Indoo]

Apparently having a thousand or so cops assaulted each year, 300 to the extent they have to take time off work and another 40 or so stabbed is acceptable to taser opponents and clearly shows that traditional methods are working.

Funnily enough those same opponents would never dream of putting themselves into the same kind of situations they accept cops to put themselves in.

I'm sure all these taser opponents would welcome the chance to spend a few shifts on the frontline so that they can quantify there rhetoric with a bit of actual real life experience. Give Keith Locke and John Minto a batton each and a small can of pepper spray and send them into a violent domestic involving a gang house where the local sgt of arms of the mongrel mob has decided to indulge in a wee bit of P and play a bit of baseball with the missus.

I'm sure they would be prepared to put themselves into that situation, after all they are not only expecting Police too, but also actively campaigning against Police being given any effective means of defense in such a situation.

[Edbear]

Seem to recall not very long ago, a cop in Auck. walked up to a guy in the street just to say "Hello" and talk to him, knowing he was a local crim type. Turned out the crim was on P and promptly stabbed the officer in the stomach. It's not peachy out there for the cops!

[Wolf]

We had the Armed Offenders Squad out our way the other week - Glocks, rifles, body armour and balaclavas.

Some plonker had threatened someone and claimed to have a pistol. The AOS got him, took him downtown and came back an hour later and raided his house, which was a P lab.

A few years back we'd just shifted into a house and walked less than 20 metres up the road to buy greasies for dinner (our cooking gear and food being in the piles of boxes strewn throughout the house).

We came outside while waiting for our order to cook and armed cops had blocked off the street and were turning vehicles away from the area, they were searching all vehicles leaving, as well.

We ate al fresco, sitting on the footpath, because we weren't allowed back into the street for over an hour while the cops hunted for a man who had loudly threatened to shoot his wife.

Personally, I'd rather have armed cops and AOS than maniacs threatening people with firearms and P labs down the road.

I wouldn't do their job for all the world so I'm glad someone's doing it.

As to weapons and armed response: Fuck East Timor, send the troops into South Auckland.

If people don't want the cops tasing people willy-nilly, then get onto the gummint to introduce tougher penalties for violent crimes and to appoint judges with sufficient cocks and balls to impose them - get the fucking offenders off the streets for good rather than letting them back out to terrorise neighbourhoods where they have to be reeled in by the police again. Arrest 'em once, for good.

[Wolf]

Give Keith Locke and John Minto a batton each and a small can of pepper spray and send them into a violent domestic involving a gang house where the local sgt of arms of the mongrel mob has decided to indulge in a wee bit of P and play a bit of baseball with the missus.

You kidding? They're a couple of armchair-rhetoric soft-cocks that would feel intimidated by the military might of 5+ Girl Guides armed with boxes of biscuits.

Either would shit themselves if you forced them to live near "Poet's Corner" in Hamilscum, let alone in Sth Auck. It's all well and good burbling that the crime rate doesn't warrant armed police when you live in nice, safe, Nobsville. It's different for those who live and work in less than savoury areas.

Policing policy being dictated by the likes of Minto and Locke is like marital advice from the Catholic Priesthood.

[spudchucka]

I do. The whole point of the police force introduced by Sir Robert Peel was that it was an UNARMED force.

For a long time politicians had been concerned about the problems of law and order in London. In 1829 Robert Peel decided to reorganize the way London was policed. As a result of this reform, the new metropolitan police force became known as "Peelers" or "Bobbies".

Times have changed since 1829, has the ills and evils of society remained static since the 1830's? No!

Its fine to hang on to the principals of PEEL, by and large the NZ police has, but the reality is that society is violent, police have to deal with violent people in all sorts of situations on a daily basis. Police agencies the world over know how quickly situations can turn wierd and or extremely violent, thats why we train and equip ourselves to deal with these situations. The weapons carried are simply the tools required to do the job. Would you expect your builder to knock up your next house armed solely with and adze and some mud bricks?

Like it or not the police IS a pseudo military organisation, which also has under it's control sections of the organisation that are para-military, (AOS & STG).

Why don't we take it back further than PEEL to days of the Normans when there was no organised police force? Who in our modern society would take up the Hue and Cry?

Hue & Cry:
In the centuries after the Norman Conquest there wasn’t an organised police force and the job of fighting crime fell mostly on ordinary people. If somebody robbed you, or you saw a murder or other crime of violence, it was up to you to raise the alarm, the hue and cry. Everybody in the neighbourhood was then obliged to drop what they were doing and help pursue and capture the supposed criminal. If the criminal was caught with stolen goods on him, he was summarily convicted (he wasn’t allowed to say anything in his defence, for example), while if he resisted arrest he could be killed. The same term was used for a proclamation relating to the capture of a criminal or the finding of stolen goods. The laws relating to hue and cry were repealed in Britain in 1827.

Sounds like community policing in action to me and there are plenty of folks that would happily carry out summary conviction and execution upon anyone they caught with stolen goods.

[Lou Girardin]

Funnily enough those same opponents would never dream of putting themselves into the same kind of situations they accept cops to put themselves in.

I have, and I still oppose tasers. I even had to think twice about using my Maglite on violent offenders for fear one of you gentlemen had just been ticketed and wanted to get back at a snake. We didn't even get handcuffs till around 1981.
So we not only had bleeding hearts to deal with, but Police second guessing us as well.
So don't cry to me.

PS Minto faced the Red Squad, I think that was a bad as any domestic.

[Indoo]

Traffic cops got sent to domestics and other violent situations where they had to face offenders with weapons completely out of it on amphetamines etc?

Thats news to me, I would have thought angry speeders or drunk drivers would have been the extent of it. Times have also changed a wee bit Lou in the 26 or so years since 1980, offenders the type of offending and the type of force they are prepared to use, you can't even remotely compare it.