Tazers

[Lias]

Then there was overseas footage of people being tazered, not to protect the cops, but to make them comply with orders. Such as a woman being zapped because she wouldn't get out of her car.

Not sure how much they showed on 60 minutes, but I've seen two internet videos of woman being tased by the cops, in both times they were repeatedly ordered to get out of the car, and repeatedly warned they would be tased if they didnt comply.
If your stupid enough to ignore repeated reasonable commands from the police, and ignore repeated warnings that failure to compy will see you tased, then you goddamned well deserve to get tased!

[vifferman]

Then there was overseas footage of people being tazered, not to protect the cops, but to make them comply with orders. Such as a woman being zapped because she wouldn't get out of her car.

I found that rather disturbing, the several footages of groups of fat, armed cops standing around yelling at 'perps' and tazering/pepper-spraying them. I'd seen that clip of the woman in the car being tazered twice (they'd obviously downloaded it from the Interdweeb), and without the added voice-over you could hear her talking on her cellphone, oblivious to whatever it was she'd supposedly done. In NZ, the cop would've waited for a while, but the cop just told her to get out of the car, warned her she would be tazered (she's not paying attention, coz she's on the phone) then zaps her. She's so busy screaming and thrashing around she doesn't comply with his request to put her hands out so she can be handcuffed, so he zaps her again.

Interestingly, guys I know in America said stuff like "She was a dumbass; she had it coming!", whereas I was a bit sickened listening to her distress.
But then I'm a wuss...

[vifferman]

You've probably seen this, about a man testing his newly-bought tazer on himself, but it's too funny to not post it again:

http://www.mr-miata.com/archives/200...and_the_t.html

[Lias]

Viffer: Check this out

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/co...r_video3b.html

Its the full video footage of "the original tasered woman", complete with comentary from a training officer from that police department. The officer who tasered her did it 100% by the book. Also has some explanations of why a taser was more sutiable that a baton or OC spray.

Here's a link to another video too:
http://files.foundrymusic.com/WMV/lo...an_tazered.zip

[Ixion]

What concerns me , is that all the debate centres around them being put forward as an alternative to guns - "better to be tased than shot".

I suspect that the reality will be different , and the taser will become an addition rather than an alternative. Like the woman tased for not getting out of her car. They'll become the revenge weapon used against anyone who annoys a cop. "Smart fuckin' kid. I can't shoot you, that wouldn't go down well, but I sure can tase you. take that , he he "

I'd be particulary concerned at their use in protest/demonstration situations (as they will be). I think I wondered before what would have happened if the Red Squad had had these weapons.

Is it really necessary for our police to be armed with deadly weapons (which these certainly are) as a routine thing ?

[ManDownUnder]

I like the idea of having weaponry (like tazers, glocks etc) available at short notice, but not carried all the time).

Tazer, glock rifle and any other offensive weapon can be used as required, but with a full measure of accountability behind it.

I see there are stuffed up people out there doing dumb shit ("P" for example) that anything pain inflicting won't worry at all. I think tazers MIGHT overcome that if there is muscle spasm induced in the recipient etc... dunno.

Not being Police myself - I'm open to comment on that (after all - it ain't my nuts I'm volunteering for the crusher).

My personal standard is that the Police are entitled to outgun anyone in society if required. THEY need to be safe in order to be expected to keep US safe... that's reasonable innit?

[ManDownUnder]

I found that rather disturbing, the several footages of groups of fat, armed cops standing around yelling at 'perps' and tazering/pepper-spraying them. I'd seen that clip of the woman in the car being tazered twice (they'd obviously downloaded it from the Interdweeb), and without the added voice-over you could hear her talking on her cellphone, oblivious to whatever it was she'd supposedly done. In NZ, the cop would've waited for a while, but the cop just told her to get out of the car, warned her she would be tazered (she's not paying attention, coz she's on the phone) then zaps her. She's so busy screaming and thrashing around she doesn't comply with his request to put her hands out so she can be handcuffed, so he zaps her again.

Interestingly, guys I know in America said stuff like "She was a dumbass; she had it coming!", whereas I was a bit sickened listening to her distress.
But then I'm a wuss...

Yeah - in which case the cop should be for the high jump. I have no problems arming the police (as little as necessary), but also rippiung the cowboys out of the force. If you can't trust people when they have power...don't give 'em power (give them a nice sharp pencil so they can assist with the paperwork racked up by those officers that ARE ok with power)

I should have said in my last post - I am also a fan of steel capped Police Boots being standard issue, and the occasional kick up the arse being meted out in lieu of anything requiring paperwork.

Common sense vs. PC bullshit... I know which side I'm on (kick 'em once, in the pants, just hard enough to make 'em think 3 or 4 times before they do it again)

[vifferman]

Yeah - in which case the cop should be for the high jump. I have no problems arming the police (as little as necessary), but also rippiung the cowboys out of the force. If you can't trust people when they have power...don't give 'em power (give them a nice sharp pencil so they can assist with the paperwork racked up by those officers that ARE ok with power)

Trouble is, with the Police struggling to find enough recruits and lowering the standards, we could end up with dumb-arses who would rather shoot first then ask questions, rather than try to negotiate where possible. It was interesting on that doco that there were very few shootings by the highly-trained/disciplined Armed Offenders unit - almost all the shootings were by 'ordinary' cops whoe presumably couldn't be bothered calling in / waiting for the experts.

If the cops have tazers readily available, it will be very easy for them to go, "I'm tired of pissing about - tazer the bastard!"

[ManDownUnder]

Trouble is, with the Police struggling to find enough recruits and lowering the standards, we could end up with dumb-arses who would rather shoot first then ask questions, rather than try to negotiate where possible. It was interesting on that doco that there were very few shootings by the highly-trained/disciplined Armed Offenders unit - almost all the shootings were by 'ordinary' cops whoe presumably couldn't be bothered calling in / waiting for the experts.

If the cops have tazers readily available, it will be very easy for them to go, "I'm tired of pissing about - tazer the bastard!"

All good stuff.

My suggestion.
1) Raise Police pay rates to something decent
2) Raise the bar - make it harder to get in (giving us better Police)
3) Equip the Police with those things they need to do their jobs (maps, torches, cars and bikes, weapons as required, support and and respect from their communities).
4) Weed the lazy/slack/gun crazy ones out...

MDU

[Lou Girardin]

Not sure how much they showed on 60 minutes, but I've seen two internet videos of woman being tased by the cops, in both times they were repeatedly ordered to get out of the car, and repeatedly warned they would be tased if they didnt comply.
If your stupid enough to ignore repeated reasonable commands from the police, and ignore repeated warnings that failure to compy will see you tased, then you goddamned well deserve to get tased!

Except that Tazers are a, supposedly, non-lethal method of subduing a dangerous person. Not to enforce commands.
Would you like them used in interrogations too?

[ManDownUnder]

Not sure how much they showed on 60 minutes, but I've seen two internet videos of woman being tased by the cops, in both times they were repeatedly ordered to get out of the car, and repeatedly warned they would be tased if they didnt comply.
If your stupid enough to ignore repeated reasonable commands from the police, and ignore repeated warnings that failure to compy will see you tased, then you goddamned well deserve to get tased!

Yeah the problem I have with that is the old "are you DEAF??" ZZZZAPPPP!!!!!!!

... and then it transpires the person actually IS deaf.

Enforcement of commands with a weapon - in a non threatening situation - is a GOOD indicator of who to fire from the Police force...

[Biff]

Using a tazer as oppossed to a gun to subdue a dangerous fkwit makes far more sense to me. Then you can immobilise him and beat the shit out of him, as oppossed to killing him outright.

[spudchucka]

He had no comment on the fact that nearly all of our shootings have been by GD cops. The Armed Offenders squad has shot few, if any. A pointer to the lack of training GD cops receive.

Completely missleading nonsense. General duties cops are the first responders to absolutely everything. They are the ones that find themselves in situations where some thing is happening that somebody has to do something about NOW. Most of the incidents where the armed offenders get rolled out are ones where dangerous offenders have gone to ground, not ones where the offender is actively endangering life in public spaces. To spout crap like this without analysing the context of the situations is missleading and utterly pointless.

Then there was overseas footage of people being tazered, not to protect the cops, but to make them comply with orders. Such as a woman being zapped because she wouldn't get out of her car.

Again, what is the context? Was she behaving in a manner that caused the police to believe that she was or may have been a serious threat? Why didn't she get out of the car after repeatedly being instructed to do so? When a person is failing to comply with lawfull instructions it is reasonable for police to take steps to enforce those instructions. Its up to the cop to assess the level of threat and weigh up what is the best tactical option to resolve the incident. The checks and balances are in place to address incidents where excessive force is used.

Comments made by Tony Bouchier, ex-cop, now a lawyer, were also not very encouraging.

There is something about ex police inspectors who become defence lawyers that stinks of a hidden agenda and a personal axe to grind as much as ex traffic officers who constantly berate everything done by the contemporary police service. Just like the so called "expert" witnesses from the Wallace murder trial who Abotts lawyer called the fully paid up members of the dissaffected ex-coppers club.

Unless training and supervision of the Police improves immensely, we will have real problems with Tazers being used indiscriminately.

Just for the benefit of the discussion and so that everybody has an equally clear understanding as you do, please enlighten us all with an explanation of the current training and supervision model employed by the nz police with regards to use of force.

[Lou Girardin]

And thank you Spud. Another eloquent dissertation on why the Police can do nothing wrong and it's all a conspiracy against the poor souls.
Can't hide the facts though.

BTW. When I was in the job, I smashed a Merc's window to extract a recalcitrant driver. Do you think I should have beaten him as well? After all, he didn't obey my instructions.

[madboy]

Again, what is the context? Was she behaving in a manner that caused the police to believe that she was or may have been a serious threat? Why didn't she get out of the car after repeatedly being instructed to do so? When a person is failing to comply with lawfull instructions it is reasonable for police to take steps to enforce those instructions. Its up to the cop to assess the level of threat and weigh up what is the best tactical option to resolve the incident. The checks and balances are in place to address incidents where excessive force is used.

The context as represented on 60 minutes was that she was talking on her cellphone and wasn't going to get out of the car. Not something as a member of the public that I'd consider particularly dangerous. I was under the impression that Tazers are to be used as an alternative to guns, if so I think that's a good idea. I'd rather be tazered than shot. But if you're gonna use them as a method of negotiation... I don't agree with that.

I have little trust that many police will use them in the appropriate context. Since they have a tendency to be overcome by emotion (particularly when a bike's just played with their egos) and react in an accordingly inappropriate manner using tazers instead.